We start with my friend’s response to the 2nd Conversation on Biblical Salvation…

<<<<

Good stuff, brother. I have gotten through about 70 pages of your document. I do think we agree about most things; a few points of difference and that is okay. A few thoughts at this point, and I will continue to go through your document . . (1) There is a danger of a mechanistic worldview of pure cause-effect . . if I do x, I get y. That would suggest if I live a righteous life, good comes to me, etc. I know that's not what you believe. Too many righteous people have endured unfathomable suffering! I see God's interventions as perhaps more common than you. Are miracles really all that uncommon? I look at God's enabling grace in so much of what I do. Luther himself believed that faith was a lively apprehension of God's grace . . in other words, His activity is all around us, in operation all the time. If we were more in touch with it, we would recognize more miracles all the time.

>>>>

Oh, my goodness! Amen and amen, brother! I completely agree with you. This is part of the semantics that gets Christians crossways of each other.

A righteous life is lived by placing our faith in Jesus and following Him as closely as possible… prayer, fasting, bible study, community with believers, serving both believers and unbeliever, etc.

Placing our faith in Jesus and following Him as closely as possible everyday will lead to a life of peace in this life and everlasting joy in the next, no matter what tribulation we encounter. Jesus told us that in this world we will have tribulation.

Jesus said, “I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33)

Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (John 6:28-29)

You and I agree on this. This life has unforeseen challenges and sometimes unfathomable suffering. But following Jesus will make us better at dealing with those challenges.

As the author of Ecclesiastes says many times, it is all a vapor. This life is like chasing smoke. Good or bad, it slips through our hand and is gone as if it never happened. Only the decisions we made in this life will last. According to the Bible, God is using this life to mold us for something much better.

God created everything. (Jn 1: 3; Rev 4:11; Ps 33:6-9) He controls everything. ‘In him we live and move and have our being’ (Acts 17:28) He does all that he pleases. (Ps 115:3) And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. (Rom 8:28)

Everything is miraculous. All of creation is a miracle. And what is even more amazing, every part is in sync with every other part.

God created intricate laws to cause this synchronicity. And He does not usually break those laws. He guides them and bends them to His purposes, but He usually does not break them. Humans use the word “miracles” when it seems to us that God has broken one of His laws. (Such as making the sun stand still or move backwards.)

My point with the mechanistic worldview of “cause-effect”, “action-reaction” is that God created a wonderfully complex world with wonderfully complex laws of action and reaction. I.e. Newton’s third law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Nothing but an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient creator God, could have done this. The intricate universe shows His glory and because of this, He holds us responsible for seeking to know Him.

Romans 1:19-20 tells us that the best explanation for life, the universe, and everything is a personal, creator God. And the rest of the book tells us we have no excuse for not seeking to know Him and place our faith in His offer of salvation.

A physicist who approaches his work with an open mind will find that even his limited knowledge of quantum and string physics reveals God. It even says yes to heavenly realms, yes to angels, yes to praying for healing, and much more.

Because of the intricately created laws which God uses to run this universe, we can count on day following night, summer following spring, death following life, “if I do x, I get y”, and 3+4=7. (I was predestined to use that equation because I knew the end from the beginning. 😊)

To take this one step further, have you heard of Fibonacci numbers or sequences or spirals? This is a number sequence called PHI or the Golden Spiral. If you are not familiar with it, google it. God uses it throughout the universe.

Let us discuss these two simple science things, “if I do x, I get y” and Fibonacci Spirals to delve into the wonderful cause-effect world God placed us in and told us to steward.

My son is a computer programmer. Computers use this basic algorithm known as “If this, then that” to run (I.e. “if I do x, I get y”). All computer programming is nothing more than this algorithm.

This is an algorithm or scientific formula which God uses not only in computer programming but everywhere. He seems to have built the whole universe upon it… all science, all mathematics, everything.

For example, even murder trials are based on this formula…

In a court of law, the prosecuting attorney, and the defense attorney both build their cases on this same algorithm.

First, the prosecution must present evidence that a crime was committed at all, right?

Then he must present evidence that there is enough evidence for a trial, right?

Then he must present evidence that it was a murder and not just an act of nature.

Then he must present evidence that the murder occurred in the jurisdiction of the court in which he is bringing the case.

Then he must present evidence that the defendant had motive.

And so on and so on…

A good attorney narrows the decisions of the judge or jury down to one decision based on all the evidence presented…

…their final argument…

…the one most important “If This, Then That” decision.

But here is the rub…

There is no such thing as absolute PROOF…

Not in a court room, not in science or anywhere in life.

There is only evidence that demands a verdict.

God gave us a rational, thinking mind. He also gave us faith, hope, and love. This is what differentiates us from the animals.

He put us in a world without absolute proof of anything, but with mountains of evidence. He expects us to use our rational mind to know where He wants us to put our faith, hope, and love.

We make decisions based entirely on faith every second of every day using only the evidence presented to us.

In every decision, we access data -- and based on the evidence -- we decide.

Faith-only decision-making is basically an ever-tightening funnel.

Until we get to the one faith decision on which we base our life.

A reverse Fibonacci Spiral!

God set these laws in place. Life, the universe, and everything is run by these laws of mathematics, science, physics, and even morality (whether we like it or not).

He created this visible world to be made up of light, time, energy, mass, and space. (As least, that we know of.)

God controls how all of these interact. We are learning and as we learn, we hypothesize and theorize scientific laws, because we can count on them interacting the same every time.

God’s laws make the world we live in go around… literally. These laws make the earth rotate and go around the sun at just the right speed and distance so that it does not freeze or burn up.

God placed the earth on just the perfect axis so that the Law of Gravity, along with our seasons, polar ice caps, atmosphere, and all the other laws of science and nature we take for granted… simply work.

These laws keep the moon just far enough away from the earth and on just the right flight path to make the tides and weather on earth work.

And it is all a miracle! Innumerable miracles make it all work. From the biggest miracles of the macro universe to the smallest miracles of the sub-atomic universe.

Everything is in such intricately complex perfection that the slightest difference in almost anything would cause everything, down to the Quantum level, to cease to exist.

Everything is a miracle!

God is in the miracle business. These miracles include God’s moral law with its intricacies of love and justice.

This is His biggest and most grand miracle. It is the reason for which He created this whole thing to begin with…

A new race of free moral beings to rule this universe (heavens and earth) and more importantly, the new heavens and the new earth (after this one ends.)

(As a side note, we tend to read the Bible to know how to get to Heaven. From what I can see in the Bible, most of the Bible has nothing to do with “How to get to Heaven.” The Bible tells of God’s kingdom coming to earth and His will being done on earth as it is in Heaven. Yes, those of us who die “in Christ” will go to Heaven to wait for His return. But the story is about Jesus and his race of living beings (made in His image) ruling from earth. A new heavenly earth, but still, earth.)

He is creating a new race of living beings to be His children and His heirs filled with His Holy Spirit, one with Him and each other, made in His image.

A new race of living beings who will sit on his throne with Him and righteously judge all the other living creatures, such as angels.

He placed these new living beings in a world with these amazing intricately connected laws of consequences. And He did it for a reason.

He is subjecting them to these laws to teach them to make wise decisions; to teach them that wisdom comes from Him alone.

They will be allowed to freely choose based solely on the evidence He provides; including the ability to freely follow Him or rebel against Him.

These God-imaged living beings are subsequently tricked into rebelling against their personal, creator God by a different living creature.

And they choose to rebel of their own free will.

Consequently, God is using their rebellion to teach them that rebellion must have consequences, as does everything.

The ultimate consequence is eternal life with Him or eternal separation from Him in the lake of fire created for the living being who they followed.

When they rebelled (and He knew they would), God decided that He would send His Son to the earth in the form of one of these new God-imaged Man-beings.

He elected to subject His Son, this God/Man, to all the laws: birth, hardships, temptations, and to everything else which humans are subjected, including death… even death on a cross.

He elected His Son to be His Chosen One before the world began and decided that whosoever freely placed their faith in Him would be reborn in the Chosen One and filled with His Holy Spirit as a deposit until He makes everything new (including their physical bodies.)

He decreed that these new living creatures must make “If this, then that” faith decisions every second of every day based on evidence alone.

The first and most basic of these decisions is whether to follow Him or not…

Without any real proof… only evidence.

And each of these living creatures must choose in what they put their faith (every second of every day).

Every decision is one of faith and will lead to another faith decision and so one. Each of our lives are built from these faith decisions.

Those who look at the evidence and decide “there is NOT a God” will create a life based on faith in that. And each decision is an ever-spiraling reverse Fibonacci sequence base on their faith that there is no God or in a non-personal, non-creator God… made in the man’s image.

Those who look at the evidence and decide there is a God, must then go to the next Fibonacci sequence and decide whether there is enough evidence for a personal, creator God.

If so, then the next Fibonacci faith decision is “Should we try to please this personal God” and if so, is there enough evidence to show us how to please this personal, creator God?

And so on until the ever-spiraling final faith decision, “Is there enough evidence for placing faith in Jesus to have the righteousness needed to please this personal, creator God?”

The good news of the Bible is that if we do make this evidence-based decision and place our faith in Jesus Christ, then the great cosmic exchange happens. He receives our sins and we receive His righteousness. God’s justice is satisfied. (Rom 3:25-26, 5:10; 2 Cor, 21; Col 1:20; 1 Jn 2:2)

We become a new creation, “the old is gone, the new has come.” We are given the Holy Spirit as a deposit to help guide us and help us stay the course of following Jesus and make wise decisions until the great and terrible Day of the Lord. (2 Cor 1:22; 5:17-18; Eph 1:13-14; Ps 2:2; Dan 16:14; Zep 1:14-18; Joel 2:31, 3:14; Acts 2:20; 1 The 2:1-4; Phi 1:2-10, 2:16; 2 Pet 3:10; Rev 6:12, 19:11-​16, 19-​21)

And according to the Bible, “if I do x, I get y” (If this, then that) even works in leading a righteous life…

If I do faith in Jesus, then I get God saying, “Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.” (Mat 25:23)

Which is the best of all the good things that could come to us!

God gives us a mountain of evidence that demands a verdict on our part. He does not force us to make specific choices. He does not force us to place our faith in His Chosen One.

He simply gives us enough evidence and tells us that when He judges us, His verdict will be just because it will be based on those free will choices we made. The most important one being, “I sent you a savior. What did you do with Him?”

He simply says, you have everything you need to escape judgement and reign with Me forever… CHOOSE WISELY!

<<<<

(2) I do believe that justice is personal, not just mechanistic. In the parables of judgment, the judgment is delivered in a relational context. "I never knew you." So it is cause and effect in some sense, but it's a relational bond that has been violated. Just something to think about.

>>>>

Amen! And again, amen!

Our God is a relational being. Before time began, the God of the Bible (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) said, “Let US make man in OUR image.” Notice the plural pronouns. (Gen 1:26)

He made us relational beings in His image. We will be in relationship with Him and with each other forever! So, He made the cause and effect of salvation boil down to, “What decision did you make about My Son?”

In the parable of judgement (Matt 7:21-23), before Jesus says “I never knew you”, He says that only “the one who does the will of my Father” “will enter the kingdom of Heaven.”

As we discussed earlier, (Jn 6:29) Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

So, this is the real equation is this: [Those who do the will of Jesus’ Father] = [those who believe in Jesus] = [those who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.]

All others, even those who do good things in Jesus name, must stand before the Great White Throne Judgement, and pay the penalty for their own sins in the Lake of Fire, the second death. (Rev 20)

We do not want Jesus to say, “I never knew you.” So, how do we keep that from happening?

If I do faith in Jesus, then I get God saying, “Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.” (Mat 25:23)

<<<<

(3) Here's a hard reality. God is not most glorified when all are saved, or else He would have saved all. If God's glory is in His utmost affections - can we agree from Piper about that, that He does all things for His glory? God can save all, but He doesn't obviously do that. Why? That's where I would point to His sovereign will. Somehow God is most glorified when not all believe. Crazy to us, but still where the evidence seems to lead us. Will continue in a next post so I don't accidentally lose all that was written . .

>>>>

God is most glorified in the CROSS OF JESUS!

He gave us a mountain of evidence for placing our faith in Him. And He expects us to make wise decisions based on that evidence.

Pastor Stuart posted this on Facebook a while back and I saved it because it made me think:

“Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.”

-Romans 12:2

I think one of the lessons in this verse is that there are only two options:

1. Conform to the world

2. Or transform to Christ.

There is no neutral. We’re either becoming more like Christ or more like the world.

The question for myself is which direction will I move today?

I.e. Libertarian Free Will Choices and the actions/consequences that follow.

By the way, I have the utmost respect for Piper. I love most of his work. He is so intelligent. Most of what he puts out is not even about salvation theory.

Plus, I even agree with most of his Calvinist salvation theory. I enjoy Piper’s ability to bring the “love” angle to this otherwise fatalistic, deterministic doctrine.

It is the conclusions drawn – from starting with fatalistic, determinism and then trying to make the Bible fit this “man-made” doctrine instead of the other way around – with which the Bible (IMHO) and I have a problem.

One of the things I try to teach all my students and my children is this, “Your life is made of your choices.” Your “today” was created by the choices you made yesterday. Your “tomorrow” will be made from the choices you make right now. You have a choice to make every second of every day…

Choose wisely!

<<<<

Carrying on . . (4) Why would the Bible use "election" language if the fundamental reality was "to believe . . and be saved"? Why would it even enter the equation unless God had determined who would in fact be saved?

>>>>

The word to “elect” or “election” means “chosen” or to “choose”.

The problem is when we add words like, “total”, “unconditional”, “limited”, and “irresistible”. The Bible does not use these words in the fatalistic, deterministic Calvin way.

The Chosen One is Jesus! Jesus is the “elect”, the “chosen”. That is what elect means. Those who place their faith in Jesus are imputed the same status as Him, “chosen” or “elect.”

This is semantics, but again there is a major difference between the words “predestined” and “preordained” or “predetermined” or “preloved” or “prehated”.

Our God is outside of time and inside of time at the same time. He “was and is and is to come” all at the same time. He was there before it all began. He will be there after it is all over. And He is there with each of us RIGHT NOW as we are presented with each faith decision. And He is saying to us, “This is the way you should go. Choose this.”

But He does not force us to make decisions either way. He is molding us to become His heirs who will reign with Him and make wise decisions “in Him”.

You are doing the same with your sons (to a point). You come along side them as adolescents saying, “Here son. Chose this way. It is the right way.”

You do this so that when they become teenagers and are leaving to go out with friend, you can say, “Remember son, choose wisely.”

And you do all of this so that when they become adults, you can say, “Well done, son. You did choose wisely. I am proud of you.”

Does/did God know who will/did place their faith in Jesus before the world began? Of course. He is God.

Did/does He force anyone to do it? No. He loves us so much and He is a better parent than you and me. He is molding us into mature, moral beings.

Does/did he weep over those who saw the mountain of evidence and chose sin instead? Yes. The same as you would if one of your sons chooses sin over Christ.

You will love him and weep, even if your son goes to prison or worse because of his choices. Even if he does unbelievably wicked things, it will not stop you from loving him.

We must all pay for our bad decisions. That is justice. And God is just, otherwise He would not be good.

You would not force one boy to righteousness and one boy to prison.

And even if you had known one of your boys would choose to love sin instead of loving Christ, you would not force Him to chose Christ.

Forced love is not love.

<<<<

(5) What about the Acts 13:48 test which says that "all who were appointed for eternal life believed?" Why would the Biblical author (Luke) make a statement about appointment if belief was all that was necessary? You may deal with this later in your paper, I don't know yet . . and understand I am speaking forcefully in this point, but not because I disagree with you on most of your points. Just questions for reflection.

>>>>

This is a great question.

This verse is often used by Calvinists to prove their preconceived idea that it means “unconditionally” and “irresistibly” appointed.

But, if we open our minds and do not approach this verse hoping to prove a point (eisegesis), does it say that God overtook their will and forced them to believe before the world began?

Is it necessary to add all the esoteric stuff about being “Unconditionally” elected or being “Irresistibly” forced to believe?

So, why would Luke use the word “appoint” (Greek tasso)?

As I said, I am not a Bible scholar or an exegete, but a simple word study of tasso (the verb form tetagmenoi), can also be translated “disposed” or “inclined.” In other words, the Gentiles disposed or inclined toward the Gospel believed (of their own free will?)

Luke could have (but did not) choose to use the word “prooridzo”, which would be the word for “predetermined”.

This would be a much better word if Luke had meant to say that God “unconditionally” elected those who would “irresistibly” believe. Do you not think?

As you taught us to study: in context, setting, audience, etc…

The context here is the Jews’ response to the gospel. It is being contrasted with that of the Gentiles.

The Jews rejected the gospel and judged themselves to be unworthy of eternal life (verse 46), the Gentiles received it gladly and embraced the message of eternal life (verse 48).

The decision was a matter of free choice in both cases.

As you and I have both said many times, it does not take anything away from God’s sovereignty to believe he allows people to freely make decisions based on the evidence presented to them.

It only adds to His glory that He provided such a mountain of evidence for putting faith in Jesus.

And, based on all the evidence, He expected them (and us) to be disposed or inclined to make the faith decision to believe in Jesus.

<<<<

(6) I would again suggest God's desire is not the same as His will. He wants all to be saved. And yet not all do. Has He failed in His purpose? No, somehow it is God's will that not all be saved, even if He wants it.

>>>>

I am not a psychologist, but is it not the definition of insanity when someone wills one thing to happen but actively works to make something else happen?

I would only be necessary for God to be schizophrenic if we presuppose the word predetermination for everything in this world. If we use the word that the Bible uses “predestination”, God’s will and his desire can be the same.

In other words, God did everything necessary for everyone to be saved.

He then created more evidence than should be necessary for everyone to place their faith in His salvation offer.

If we do not use the words “predetermined” or “unconditional” or “limited” or “irresistible” then God can be rational and just instead of mentally and morally deranged.

Yes. You are right. I agree with your statement, “God wants all to be save.”

But can I suggest that “His will” is to provide everything necessary for all to be saved. His will is to provide the “ram, caught in a thicket by his horns” for the offering. Nobody can do anything more than Jesus has already done. It is finished. Everything necessary for each person’s salvation has already been done for them.

He has also provided a mountain of evidence, enormous patience, and amazing grace for each of us to see the light… if we simply open our eyes.

He sent His chosen apostles from His line of chosen people, He ordained His church, He inspired His Bible to be written and preached to us, He sent His Holy Spirit to come along side us and convict us to ‘listen, understand, and choose this’, He may have even sent our friend or Pastor, for goodness sakes… during a time when we were going through hardship… to be Jesus to us… and share the Gospel…

He gives each of us this mountain of evidence which demands a verdict.

But He does not “predetermine” to “unconditionally” or “irresistibly” force us.

I see the Bible showing His desire and His will to be the same and to be truly clear and simple for us to see.

<<<<

(7) A problem that Arminians have to deal with is how can a dead person respond without being awakened to life? If we are dead in sin, how are we even able to respond? If the agent of "resurrection" or "regeneration" is the Word, why does it not awaken all? How can some dead people do the right thing and others do the wrong thing? Wouldn't that mean that some people are good - thus meritorious - and others are not? I'm not so much convinced that Calvinists have artificially constructed the concept of "secret will" and unconditional election as they have come across the equation 3 + __ = 7, and they have solved for 4!

>>>>

This is one of the reasons I am not an Arminianist either. The doctrine of Total Depravity, or whatever, in both Calvinism and Arminianism is not Biblical. (IMHO 😉)

The doctrine that we were somehow genetically altered, or something, is not Biblical. The idea that we are completely unable to even see and understand God’s mountain of evidence for His salvation offer is not in the Bible. (Again, in my humble opinion.)

I do not see where it says humans were genetically altered after the fall. As we discussed in document 2.2, the Tree of Life was external to us. We now all die because the source of eternal life is no longer in the world with us.

It seems to me that one man (probably Augustine, IDK, but it was not Jesus) came up with this weird idea and few people have questioned it. You and I have looked at many verses in our discussion so far, but if you have more, I would love to see them.

I can understand how they came up with this weird doctrine. But the mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open. If we open our mind and imagine that these “men” might be confused, we may find that the Bible teaches something else.

I cannot encourage you enough to read the rest of our discussion document 2.2. If you still want to ask this question afterward, I would love to discuss it further.

(But if I can make a joke here… could the Calvinists have hidden the equation beforehand and then pretended to stumble upon it to prove their point? 😊 I contend there was never an equation, no need for an equation, and thus, no need for this or any answer to this equation.)

<<<<

(8) I would argue that election does not negate assurance of salvation. We agree on that; I can know my own salvation; I can't know yours definitively. The Muslim view is that you can't really know until your deeds are weighed, and thus you have to keep going on doing good things, whereas Christians know "I am adopted; I have the Spirit; I see the evidence of my belief; I know I am saved." Quite different. Again, just thoughts. I like a lot of what you said, more importantly I believe what the Bible says that you likewise affirm. You soften my hardness at some points, which is good. Particularly notable is the good teaching that God strengthened the will of Pharaoh. The police officer strengthens the will of the speeder by withdrawing himself or herself from sight, so that the person will commit the act they already had in their heart to do. More to come . . Thanks!

>>>>

I cannot wait. I genuinely appreciate your challenging comments and question. They make me think it through deeply.

As I have said throughout this discussion, I am not necessarily disagreeing with Calvinists. And as I said in our earliest comments, if you had been arguing for Arminianism, I would have argued against that, as well.

My point is for us to stop dividing ourselves by following mere men.

Yes, there was a need for Calvin to argue against semi-Pelagianism. And yes, there was a need for Aminius to argue again Calvin.

But the debates should not have been which of these men are right.

It should have been, “Could both men be wrong?” and “Could the Bible be saying something different than either of these men think?”

Since these two great men, there have been tons of other great men, for the last 500 years, who should have started with the Bible instead of starting with “determinism” vs “free will” creating oceans of ink defending one side or the other.

As you and I have said, most of it is just semantics.

If God knows the end from the beginning and we are predestined (not predetermined) to do what we have already done in His eyes, then we can do no different than what He already knows we did/are doing/will do.

Which is not to say that God chose to save and damn people before the beginning of the world “irresistibly”.

But still and all, it has already been determined by the fact that God observed it. So, there is that.

Again, Schrodinger’s Cat asks the question, “If God did not observe our life’s decisions and events did any of it even happen?”