Thank you so much for responding! I greatly appreciate your friendship and respect your intellect. And because I also admire your deep knowledge of scripture, I feel honored to have this discussion with you.

Again, I have included your responses and my responses to your responses 😊 in this one document. Your counterpoints are again in <<<< quotes >>>>.

Like yours, all scripture quotations are ESV, unless otherwise noted.

I wrote the first document as a public response to your Facebook post. Thus, it took a more indirect approach. I did not want to hurt anyone’s faith who did not yet know Christ. I was concerned about the possible angry comments from Christian friends on either side.

In this second document, I apply a more direct approach to the subject, while still trying to be loving. Public response on this page is not allowed.

As I wrote in our first round of comments, neither Calvin’ism or Arminian’ism appear to be Biblical.

And from your comments, you and I seem closer in our beliefs than appeared at first.

So, please know that this is direct at the more fatalistic determinism brand of Calvin’ism. (To which you do not appear to subscribe.)

Thus, when your comments assert something leaning that way, which does not seem Biblical, I may be more direct than loving. Please forgive me if you feel unloved in any of my comments.

Know that I have prayed about and carefully considered your position before responding. I have studied each point and with the Holy Spirit's help, I am explaining the Biblical position I see.

Let us jump in.

THE SCHISM OF THE ‘ISMS?

Following a man or a group of men, no matter how intelligent they seem is wrong according to scripture (1 Cor 3-4). Every 'ism is man-made and thus, is not divine. And I will contend is not Biblical. ‘Isms are the reason for disunity in the church. IMHO

My use of the apostrophe in the 'isms may irritate you, but I have a reason. I do it to drive home 1 Corinthians, chapters 3 and 4, where the Bible teaches us not to follow other men and divide ourselves into ‘isms.

We are to follow Jesus Christ alone! (Solus Christus!)

The doctrine of salvation (soteriology) is the focus of our discussion. Of which, for the last 500 years, the main 'isms have been Calvin'ism and Arminian'ism. (Aka, Reformed, Wesleyan, Methodist, etc.)

The Bible is one story about the one and only omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent God, who reveals Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It declares His glory and announces His majesty in an amazing display of creation with beauty and intricate physical and natural detailed laws.

The story immediately shifts to His intimate, loving relationship with the shining pinnacle of His creation which He created in His image, a brand new intelligent and moral being called man. It shows His love for this prize being and hints that He plans to have a father and son relationship with them and for them rule with Him forever.

It details how He gave mankind freedom and responsibility. It shows how He set forth the laws of His new creation and the consequences of breaking them.

Like any great book, the Bible starts at the point of high drama. A dastardly enemy deceives man into doubting God and joining his revolution. It then begins to detail the corruption and destruction this rebellion causes.

Also, like any good book, the Bible future paces the story. It gives clues about the future, how the Hero of the story, God, will save the day and restore the love relationship with man. It tells the reader how much God loves His prize above all creation and tells how He still plans to make them His sons and have them rule with Him forever. But now it further proclaims His glory and majesty by how He uses their rebellion and the destruction caused by it to accomplish this.

The Bible is the most wonderful, exciting, heartfelt story every written. And the most mind-blowing thing about it… it is true, and it includes you and me.

And it communicates so much more than salvation doctrine. Yes, the overarching story is God’s amazing offer to his loved ones. But, sometimes, we tend to view everything in this amazing book as pertaining to salvation doctrine. And most of the time… it is just not.

The God of the Bible is a jealous God. The number one rule is to love and obey Him above all else. He will not allow His most beloved beings to love anyone or anything more than Him, because He is a humble, self-sacrificing servant leader who loves mankind above anyone or anything else.

Part of the fall of mankind includes not only our rebellion and adultery against God, but also our prideful, self-serving, divisiveness among each other. We continue to divide ourselves into buckets so that we can believe our bucket is better, prettier, smarter, stronger, and overall superior to everyone else’s bucket.

The main thesis of this document is that very thing. I attempt to prove that all the ‘isms are man-made. I am under no illusion that I have a better bucket. I believe that our wonderful God has created a owner’s manual so detailed that He has given every one of us everything we need to know His will for us.

Thus, it is my contention that we can know His will for each of us without the doctrines of man. I know that you agree with me on this.

I am writing this for more than just you and me. I could not ask for a wiser person with whom to work all of this out.

And for anyone who reads this, this group of documents are not your answer, either. The Bible is. Jesus Christ is. We talk through some deep issues but as Paul says, do not follow either of us. Follow Christ. The Bible gives us everything we need to do so.

As I laid out in the beginning, for the last 500 years, two theological systems have clouded people’s minds to the truth. Both systems were not issued by God. They were created by men.

And just like the Jews of Jesus’ day, men have been finetuning God’s words to fit their system for so many years that it does not resemble God’s intention in giving it to us.

We start with one of two belief systems and study our Bible from that system. My contention is that it is time to reboot. Our systems have gotten so convoluted that they do not work very well.

I contend that, as with every other institution man builds over time, Satan has his say in the development of them. And the way he works is to inject enough truth to make the lies believable. Thus, I contend that the vast majority of both ‘isms are wonderfully true. It is the erroneous conclusions (I.e. 1+1=3) in systems which cause viruses.

The pitch for both ‘isms is the fact that they have been around for 500 years and men much wiser than you and I have pondered and wrote about them. Who are we to question such great theologians?

It is just for this reason -- the fact that they are manmade system that have been around for over 500 years – it is for that reason I suggest that we bull-doze them and start over. They ultimately have rot and mold and rust.

And in this document, I will press my personal belief that one strain of one of these systems has become a nasty virus. It has worked its way so deep that it is actually making the Word of God operate against itself… if that were possible.

That virus is a branch of one of the ’isms which, from my study of the Bible, is misrepresenting the Biblical God, misrepresenting Biblical mankind, misrepresenting the Biblical relationship God has with mankind and gives the leaders of the rebellion -- humanists and atheists – power and excuses.

I contend that this virus is the brand of Calvin’ism which promotes fatalistic determinism.

To be honest, if we simply start with the original 5-points of either side and extrapolate to their logical conclusion, neither is Biblical. IMHO. Over time, disciples on both sides have softened some or all the five points. They have added belief systems to their belief systems to make their system work when confronted by the Bible.

My focus in this discussion is the fatalistic deterministic branch of Calvin’ism.

Therefore, when you see the term Calvin'ism in this document please know that I refer to this fatalistic, deterministic teaching.

There seems to only be a few passages on which each side focuses when proving their soteriology. For the disciples of Calvin’ism these passages are Romans 8 and 9, Ephesians 1 and a few others.

It seems to me that Calvin’ism plucks these particular passages out and tries to make the rest of the Bible conform to them?

You teach good theology. Your basic, “How to Read Your Bible” 101 is superb. You teach to consider the passage in context with the book and the whole Bible. Consider the culture, language, writer, audience and all the other issues affecting the passage.

I propose everyone reading this to learn “How to Read Your Bible” in this way. I will endeavor to approach these passages and others with your help. And between the us, my hope is that at least the two of us grow in our relationship with God and each other.

As I said, this paper has stopped being directed at your original post. You and I are not that far apart.

This has become a labor of love for me.

READ IT FOR ALL IT’S WORTH

In this response, I am going to ask that we read the Bible in the way you taught.

Romans 8 and 9 and Ephesians 1 seem to be the main passages of scripture that cause the most division. (We discussed Eph 1 in the last document.)

Thus, I will ask that we use the techniques you taught.

1. Do not pull passages out of context.

2. Read the whole book and compare it to the rest of what the Bible teaches.

3. Who is the author? Who is the audience?

4. Why was the book written? What is the point?

5. When was it written? What were the political, social, and other factors?

6. What was the language? Were there idioms that do not make sense to us today?

7. What was the culture like? How was it different from today or from those around them?

8. Chapter and verse numbers are not divine and were not in the original.

9. Follow the logical thought process of the writer and the audience based on their culture.

10. All the other things you taught.

FREE WILL OR PREDESTINATION. Which is true?

I gave this document the title “FREE WILL OR PREDESTINATION. Which is true?” because that is the usual question leading to this discussion.

People ask this question because they confuse the word “predestination” with pre-“determination” in regard to salvation, which causes undo confusion.

As we agree and have discussed in our first document, both predestination and free will are Biblical. Soteriological pre-determination is not. I.e. We will discuss why I do not believe it to be Biblical that God arbitrarily picked certain people before the world began for mercy and arbitrarily picked certain people before the world began for eternal torment.

According to the Bible, inside of His “time, matter, energy, and space” creation (the universe in which we live):

1. God knows all things and does all that He desires. (Isa 44:6, 48:12; Rev 1:8; Ps 115:3)

2. God created the Laws of Physics and Natural Law to govern this universe and gave us free will to manage this universe and both are subject to natural consequences. (Actions and Reactions) (Gen 1: 26, 28; Gen 9:2; Psalm 8:4-6, 115:6; Heb 2:6-8 [quoting Ps 8:4-6])

3. God limits Himself and us to these Physical and Natural laws and His moral character (Love and Justice). I.e. He cannot perform logical absurdities; square circles or make 1+1=3. Likewise, He is limited to His nature. (Heb 6:18; Tit. 1:2; Hab 1:13)

Does God control all things? Yes.

Does He make sure that all things work out for good. Yes.

Did He create all the natural laws that govern creation? Yes.

Can He change those natural laws if He wishes? Of course.

Does He change those natural laws very often? No. Which is why we call them “miracles”.

Did He create mankind with individual free will? Yes.

Can he interfere with that free will? Yes. Does He interfere with that free will very often? No.

God created everything (including mankind) and called it good. He made man responsible over His creation.

He gave mankind one rule. Obey Him!

He gave us this one rule for the same reason parents give their children rules.

He loves us and knows what is best for us. He warned us that if we disobey, there will consequences which we and all creation must pay.

Biblical justice is the Law of Consequences.

The non-biblical word is Karma. Even those who are still in rebellion against God realize in their heart that the “universe” must enforce justice. The whole Bible says this is what God created and enforces. (Galatians 6:7) Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.

The law of action and reaction is so evident in the physical world that our lives are unconsciously guided by our sense of its infallibility. Day follows night unfailingly, as birth is succeeded by death. Certain common principles of mechanics expressing this law are understood and acted upon instinctively, even by children.

Law and order are the rule everywhere and are constantly readjusting the disorder which ignorance, carelessness, pride and rebellion produce. The presence of this law of logical results following upon action is indeed plainly revealed over the whole of nature.

God’s word is the instruction book to mankind of this rule. He told the first man that all creation will become corrupted by sin when we disobey. And because He has subjected himself to the physical and natural laws of the universe, He will not be able to intervene to change it back.

Can He intervene? Yes. But like we said, those times when He does are called miracles.

[Did, does, will] He know about earthquakes, hurricanes, wildfires, and plagues because of this corruption? Yes.

Could He interfere and stop them? Yes.

Does He choose to interfere? No. (Action and reaction. Consequences. Moral law.)

[Did, does, will] He know that every one of us [will, does, did] choose sin over obedience? Yes. (Predestination)

[Did, does, will] He know that we [will do, do, did do] many horrible things to each other and to creation? Yes. (Predestination)

Could he interfere and take away our free will to stop it? Yes.

Does He choose to interfere? No. (Action and reaction. Consequences. Moral law.)

IN THE BEGINNING

As a side note, the Bible also speaks of a different part of creation called Heaven which has not been corrupted by our sin. And it talks about a different creature called The Satan (Ha-Satan is the Hebrew term for the sâtan [Hebrew: שָּׂטָן‎] meaning “the accuser" or “the adversary").

This being accuses humans before God and accuses God before humans. He is the adversary of both God and man.

You know the story. The Satan accused God of hiding his “secret” knowledge from humans. He told the first humans (and continues to do so today) that we can be like God. By doing so, humans disobey and bring sin into creation (outside of Heaven.)

So, what is His answer? Is He going to fix this problem that we have caused by our rebellion? Yes.

But how?

If He has chosen to limit Himself to the physical and natural laws of the universe, how is He going to fix this problem we have gotten ourselves into?

If He has chosen to limit Himself to His own moral character, how is He going to fix this problem we have gotten ourselves into?

Even as the first humans disobeyed and created the initial problem, He told us that He will fix it. (Genesis 3:15) “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

He chose a line of people and created a nation into which He would birth His human/God Messiah.

Was this line of people more righteous than others? No. He picked this line of people, despite their sin.

Were they smarter? No.

Was He electing them to bring them to Heaven and damn everyone else to hell? No.

For what purpose did He pick them? To fix the problem we created…

…without altering His rules of creation.

He fixed the problem without altering physical and natural laws (Action and Reaction) or His moral law (Consequences and Justice!)

THE ONE WILL TO RULE THEM ALL!

I believe the Bible is clear on soteriology (salvation doctrines). I do not see any “secret” or “hidden” will of God in the simple and clear soteriology of the Bible.

Are there mysteries in the Bible? Of course!

Are there things in the Bible that God is not telling us? Yes. But the mysteries that God allows are not going to send people to eternal torment for no reason.

Eschatology, the study of the end times, is a perfect example. It is very mysterious! I cannot wait to discuss this further with you.

Jesus himself said that only the Father knows the date and time. So, whether Jesus will rapture the church pre-trib or mid-trib...

…or if His second coming and the rapture will take place all at the same time post-trib...

…or if His second coming is premillennial or if it has all already been, i.e. amillennial...

…or even postmillennial;

…it is all a guessing game.

There are good clues, but in the end, when we are rejoicing in the new heavens and the new earth, we will all probably say, “Wow! I did not see that coming.”

Though, the Bible is clear on this, no one is going to go to hell for any of these “hidden” mysteries.

NO EXCUSES! WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE

Here is my issue with this brand of ‘ism. By giving people excuses, Calvin’ism could be pushing people into Hell without meaning to.

I have a dearly loved person who calls himself an agnostic, but who argues like an atheist. I have two other close people who call themselves atheists. All three are hostile to the Gospel. I love them and, as Paul says, “I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.” (1 Cor 9:22-23)

So, to understand their logic and practice sharing the Gospel with atheists, I joined an atheist FB group. From my close people and from within this FB group, I hear arguments that are the excuses which Calvin’ism creates for them.

I have learned to try to reeducate them on the real Gospel before offering God’s mercy to them…

And the atheist argues with me that I am explaining it wrong. LOL

I do not believe the disciples of Calvin’ism are maliciously doing this. They may not understand the ramifications of their fatalistic, determinism on some people.

As you know, disciples of Calvin’ism believe that God has already chosen the “elect”. They believe He has already determined who He has elected to salvation and who He has elected to damnation before the world began -- not based on His foreseen knowledge or any virtue, merit, or faith in those people.

They seem to feel that as long as they are representing their form of Calvin’ism correctly, they can take comfort in the belief that it is not up to them.

Without strawmanning, let me tell what I see. It seems like Calvin’ists believe they must evangelize because, “God said so.” But it also seems like they do not believe it matters; whatever they say is not going to affect the outcome.

God has already determined the outcome. So, it seems they feel they can say whatever they want without worrying about how it affects the hearers’ hearts.

Without realizing it, this soteriology is giving many people an excuse to not believe. I am not saying these excuses are going to work before God. I am simply saying that atheists hear, “It is not my fault.”

These are some of the excuses I hear from atheists and many seekers. Their objections and excuses seem to come straight out of this fatalistic, deterministic teaching. They say things like:

“If God existed…

I rejected God because He first rejected me.

I hated God because He first hated me.

I do not believe because He did not grant me the ability to believe.

I am an enemy of Him and hate Him because that is the nature with which I was born, and I have absolutely no control of it whatsoever.

He created me this way. If He is good, then I must be good, even though I am a ___________ (insert whatever sinful act you wish.)

Who are you to judge me? If God exists, I will take it up with Him.”

I realize the fall predisposed all people to love the world and themselves more than God. And they are looking for any excuse to blame God for their sins so that they can continue in sins.

But the God of the Bible loves those people. Jesus died for those people. The Gospel is complete and available to even those people.

Is Paul more loving than the god of this brand of ’ism? Am I more loving than the god of this ‘ism?

In 1 Corinthians 9:19-23, Paul says he tries every means possible and becomes anything necessary to win people to the Gospel and I feel the same.

Does Paul care more for people than Jesus?

In Romans 9:2-3, Paul says that he wishes He could trade with those who are going to hell. He says that he wishes he could go to hell if that meant the damned people could spend eternity in paradise with Christ. (As I admit when we discuss Romans 9 verse by verse, I have never wished this.)

So, under this version of Calvin’ism, Paul is more righteous than their god. Their god has elected some people to eternal damnation. And Paul wishes it was not so. He says he would trade with those “predetermined” damned people.

That is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible is a self-sacrificing God. He came to earth in the form a flawed man and DID trade places with those damned people! So that whosoever believes shall be saved!

THE CHARACTER OF GOD

From what I have seen, most disciples of Calvin’ism are so concerned with the Glory of God that they risk misrepresenting the Character of God.

A god who pre-“determines” people to Hell is not the God of the Bible.

A god who pre-“determines” sin, pre-“determines” rape, pre-“determines” child abuse, pre-“determines” all the evil, sinful things that happen in this world…

…that god is not the God of the Bible!

I saw a comment from a woman in a FB group the other day. She said she endured excruciating physical, mental, and sexual abused from a man who was much stronger than her.

She said that she could not believe in [a Calvin’ist] God because she could not believe in a god made in this man’s image.

NOT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE!

Yes, this woman is making an appeal based on her “feelings”, which many disciples of Calvin’ism disdain. Many disciples of Calvin’ism seem to harden their hearts to this “feelings” weakness in people.

They seem to believe the god of their brand of Calvin’ism says to these weaklings, “But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, Why have you made me like this?”

Are we all indebted to Calvin, Luther, Edwards, and even Augustine? Yes. The same is true with Erasmus, Arminius, Wesley, and others.

Following Calvin, Wesley, or any of these men does not stop people from following Christ. It does not mean they are not saved.

But it may mean that they are causing many other people to not be saved.

On more than one occasion someone in the Bible asks, “what must we do to be saved?” and the response is: repent, trust, believe (for example, Acts 2; 16).

Romans 10:9-10 says to confess with your mouth and believe with heart and you will be saved!

Not that he will give outward evidence of salvation (James 2:14-26) only God knows his heart. But the Bible does say a Christian's life will produce fruit. (Matthew 7:16-20)

So, even if someone is led astray in their soteriology or any part of their theology “system”, according to the Word of God, they may still be saved.

My problem is not with the Calvin’ist Christian. I fellowship with Calvin’ists. Some of my best friends are Calvin’ists. My problem is with the fruit produced by the teaching of Calvin’ism. (And I shall endeavor to show that the Bible has the same problem.)

So, with that foundation laid, let us jump right in and discuss an overview of what I see in the Bible. Then we will tackle each of your points.

THE 30,000 FT VIEW:

God's Word says that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and not by our own efforts or works (Eph 2:8-9).

Is there more that God is doing behind the scenes when this takes place?

Absolutely! But let us stick with scripture which says that both divine sovereignty and human responsibility are true and go together. (I.e. “grace through faith”.)

We agree that God is sovereign, and He uses human means: preaching, prayer, repentance, faith, etc.

We also agree that humans cannot save themselves in any way. It is all Jesus!

Even faith is a gift of God.

But here is the rub, the Bible says it is our responsibility to act on that faith. (Acts 16:30-31; Eph 2:8-9; 2 Cor 5:21; John 5:24; Rev 3:20; Rom 10:9-10; etc.)

God is righteous in His judgment of us because He has made his will for us known. And He holds us responsible for what we do with it.

The words “responsibility” and “responsible” are important to the discussion of God’s righteous judgment of us. Let us dissect and discuss these words.

RESPONSIBLE AND RESPONSIBILITY

My kids were taught “phonetics” and “phonics” when they were in about the 3rd or 4th grade. (IDK) As I was helping them with these, we learned to break words up to understand their meaning more easily. For example:

Responsible = RESPONSE + ABLE

We can also use stories, parables, and mental pictures to better understand words. Here is one:

There once was a mentally disabled person who damaged his neighbor’s property to the tune of $10,000.

Now, a good Samaritan offered to give the disabled person the $10,000 he needed to make amends with his neighbor. But the mentally disabled person did not have the capacity to understand that what he did was wrong.

He did not understand the concept of money. He did not understand why he should have accepted the Samaritan’s money. He did not understand why he should have to pay for the damage he caused.

In other words, the mentally disabled person is not RESPONSE ABLE.

Next word…

Responsibility = RESPONSE + ABILITY

In our example, should a judge in a court of law hold this mentally disabled person responsible? In a word, No.

He does not have the ability to respond.

According to Wikipedia, the insanity defense, also known as the mental disorder defense, is an affirmative defense by excuse in a criminal case, arguing that the defendant is not responsible for his or her actions due to an episodic or persistent psychiatric disease at the time of the criminal act.

What do these words have to do with this discussion? Everything! Let us dig in more.

A TULIP BY ANY OTHER NAME…

I am not well versed on all the different sub-labels into which they further divide themselves. “New Calvinism”, “High Calvinism”, “Moderate Calvinism”, etc. I know none of them like the sub-label, “Hyper Calvinism”.

Again, I am going to try not to straw man. Please forgive me if I misquote or misinterpret any particular brand of Calvinism. As I mentioned earlier, I am talking about what I see as the logical conclusion of a full 5-Point Calvin'ism belief system.

I hope that no one believes this fatalistic, deterministic system in full. They do not seem to. Many claim to believe all 5 points, but…

Even the staunches Calvin'ist comes to the middle when confronted with Biblical truths. Either that or they duck under, "It is a mystery that only God knows." Or they inject things like the "secret" will of God when their soteriological "system" seems illogical.

I do not understand why they do not dump the "system" and start over instead of continuing to patch the holes. These soteriological systems have been hammered in for 500 years. So, I understand the challenge with not approaching the Bible from one side or the other, but what if both are simply wrong?

As I have said many times, I am not a Bible expert. I am just a simple man. Therefore, I beg you to show me where I am reading the Bible wrong.

You already said you have a logical problem with believing the “L”, “Limited Atonement”. I also cannot see that in the Bible.

I understand how they came up with it. A case can be made for atonement to be “limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all”, as you said in your original post. But when taken to its logical conclusion, it clearly contradicts the rest of the Bible.

As you say, “many verses speak of Christ dying for all (Romans 6:10; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15). I understand the Calvin’ists change these in their mind to mean “all believers”, but as you say, the logic is faulty.

Here I am quoting you from your original post:

(1) If Christ only died for the sins of believers, how could the Gospel rightly be offered in preaching to everyone, not knowing if Christ’s death really died for everyone’s sins? How is that a “good-faith” offer? I believe the death was a true death accepting the full payment of God’s wrath for sins. Some will believe and receive the benefits, others will reject. But the price was still paid.

(2) If you look at a verse like John 3:16, which says that God loved the world in this way, that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. While this verse doesn’t specifically speak about the extent of the atonement (specific or universal), in context, the event refers back to when a snake was lifted up in the desert that whoever looked to the snake who was bit would be healed. It seems that the “offering” was for all.

1 John 2:2 is perhaps the hardest verse for proponents of limited or definite atonement to get around – “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” The apostle John seems to be speaking of the limited atonement – “for our sins,” speaking of believers – and then saying that it is part of an overall atonement – “but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 Timothy 4:10 seems to suggest a similar idea: “we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.”

I agree with you. There is much more in the Bible which outweigh any support for limited atonement such as the necessity of faith for salvation and the Old Testament stuff about a Messiah. I will discuss these others in as we delve in.

I believe the Bible has just as much against the faulty logic of all five letters.

If we redefine terms and meanings, the “T” and the “P” could possibly stand up to Biblical scrutiny. And as I said, all 5 points have just enough truth in them to hide rest and lead us to faulty conclusions.

When we take them to their logical conclusions, they tend to cause logical problems. And again, when the logic gets muddled the teacher usually admits the conundrum and hides under, “It is a mystery. We do not know why God is like that. Just be happy He is.”

Or the logic gets so convoluted that they use the “Two Wills of God” on salvation theory. Let me emphasis that Calvin’ism is soteriology (salvation doctrine). Thus, the logic implies that there is “hidden” or “secret” stuff which God uses against us for eternity.

I know that you defend this in your first point #1, below and offer several passages in its defense. I am surprised you did not use the most common defense arguments for “The Two Wills of God” theory, which usually include God hardening Pharaoh’s heart and Jesus hiding Himself from the Jews.

We will look at your defense in point #1. But for now, let us discuss the examples that are most often used to defend the “secret” or “hidden” will of God, Pharaoh’s hardening and the Jews’ hardening.

I heard a famous teacher of this form of Calvin’ism say that he believes, “God desires all men come to repentance. But He actively works against that.” He was talking about the “Two Wills of God” in respect to soteriology.

Basically, the pitch was this, God genuinely desires the salvation of ALL. He said it is a genuine offer of salvation. He says that God really does want everyone to come to salvation. But He has a “hidden” or “secret” will that is actively working against His “revealed” will when it comes to salvation.

In other words, the argument is that He actively wants something to happen. But He actively works against Himself to stop it from happening.

I ask you, is this is a genuine offer?

If God really does wants all to be saved, why is He working against Himself?

Why does He only elect some and damn others?

If He genuinely wants all to be saved, why does He not just elect all people, or at least a lot more than He seems to?

That is a question for which this form of Calvin’ism does not seem to have a good answer.

As with most I have heard, this teacher used the example of Pharaoh from the Old Testament. He said God wanted Pharaoh to let His people go. But He hardened Pharaoh’s heart to display His glory, cause the Passover, and release Israel.

He also brought up the example of the Jews in the New Testament. He asserted that God wanted the Jews to know Jesus as the Messiah. But He actively hardened their hearts so they would not believe.

And he used the example of Jesus’ miracles and parables. He pointed out that Jesus actively stopped people from talking about His miracles and he taught in parables to prevent them from seeing, hearing, believing, and turning.

This teacher asked these questions. “Why did He [Jesus] tell people to keep quiet about his miracles?” “Why did He speak in parables to prevent them from understanding?”

TO HARDEN OR TO STREGNTHEN, THAT IS THE QUESTION

So, yes, there does seem to be a sense in which God wants something to happen but then actively works to prevent it. What do we do with that?

In the situations above, God seemed to want one thing to happen, but it says he ‘hardened’ the heart of people to make the opposite happen.

Let us look deeper into the words used here ‘hardened’ (“hazaq”) and “heart” (“lev”).

According to Dr. Nicholas J. Schafer of the Israel Bible Center, the Exodus idea of God ‘hardening’ Pharaoh’s heart is wrongly translated in most English translations, including the 1599 Geneva, KJV, ESV, NIV, NET, CSB, HCSB, NASB, and many more. Here is what he says:

"However, rather than "harden," hazaq literally means to "strengthen," and along with "heart," lev can also mean "desire" or "will." Thus, an equally valid translation is that "the Lord strengthened Pharaoh's will." Do you see the difference here? For God to strengthen Pharaoh's will does not mean that God forced him to do something against his will, but just the opposite: it was already Pharaoh's will to keep the Israelites enslaved, so God strengthened the pharaonic will that was already there.”

In other words, God did something to ensure the person would continue to act as their normal self.

A good analogy I heard from a non-Cavin’ist teacher was that of a police officer hiding his police car to catch speeders. He is not making the speeders speed. He is simply taking action to allow them to continue to do what they already have a desire to do.

God did not have to do anything to Pharaoh or Israel. They had already hardened their own hearts. He just strengthened their will to do what they would do naturally if they did not believe He was watching.

We see this in Jesus instructing people not to tell others about his miracles. “Keep this quiet, it’s not the right time.” It is also why He spoke in parables.

He did not make them sinful. He simply did not show off publicly. He did not want too many of them to see the truth of who He was, yet.

If too many came to faith too soon “they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” (1 Cor 2:8)

If there had been thousands of “true” followers of Jesus, the crowd may not have shouted “crucify Him!” And the religious leaders would not have dared come up against a group that size.

He hardens their hearts [or strengthened their desire] to not see him as the Messiah for a time. The Gospel had not been fulfilled yet. It had not been completed yet.

Even those who believed and became true followers did not understand what He was saying and doing yet.

He explained it to them. He even explained the meaning of the parables to them.

From our vantage point, we wonder why they did not understand.

Isaiah 28:16 prophesied this. They did not understand because they had hardened their own hearts, I.e. their self-righteousness; their belief that they deserved a conquering hero Messiah for their earthly kingdom because of their bloodline.

They did not understand until He was raised up.

Once He was raised up, He would draw all men to Himself, literally through the preaching of the Gospel!

Again, I do not see the Bible teaching “The Two Wills of God” as a soteriological theory.

Does this explanation make sense? And more importantly, is this not more logical than “The Two Wills” theory? And does it not make more sense when looking at the whole Bible?

If not, please show me? We will discuss your previous objections in point #1 below.

A TIME FOR EVERYTHING UNDER HEAVEN

Those who do teach this using these two examples are taking sections out of the history of the Jews.

These sections were unique times in history. God hardened Pharaoh (or strengthened his desire) and later, hardened the Jews (or strengthening their desire) at a particular time in history for a particular purpose.

The Jews were His chosen people.

For what were they chosen? For their own individual salvation? No.

They were chosen for a specific purpose -- to bring about His plan of salvation for all people.

Romans 11:32 “For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all.”

This is a part of His redemptive plan in history. And He does this through the hardening of Pharaoh in the first Passover and the hardening of the Jews in the second Passover.

My contention is this. God brought about His redemptive purpose for the world through Pharaoh’s hardening and God is still bringing about his redemptive purpose for the world through Israel’s hardening.

Though they have continued to harden their own hearts, God is still using the nation of Israel for His redemptive purpose for the world and that is a unique situation He is bringing to pass.

God is not being arbitrary!

He is not redeeming some through His meticulous determinative means because He arbitrarily chose them before the world began.

He is not secretly working against His own will to cause something to happen that He does not want to happen.

Would you not agree that if He was, then that would literally the definition of insanity?

The God of the Bible is not insane.

That is not what the Bible is saying in these passages. It is saying that He has worked together salvation for all mankind by working through some rebellious people to bring it to pass.

Does that not fit better with the rest of the Bible than the “Two Wills Theory”?

PREDESTINATION, ELECTION, SANCTIFICATION AND FREE WILL

Predestination, election, and man’s free will are in the Bible. Properly defined, these are Biblical doctrines to bring about sanctification (and even glorification) for those who believe.

Let us discuss this.

For example, Ephesians 1 – He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.

This verse does not say He chose us “To be” in Him, does it?

So, who did He choose? Those “in Him”. “He chose us [who are] in Him…”

For what?

The doctrine of predestination is that He chose those “in Him” to be holy and blameless in His sight.

This is sanctification!

God has predestined those who are “in Him” to be sanctified, adopted, and glorified in Christ.

And we know it is going to happen. He has guaranteed that it is going to happen. Because that is what He has predestined before the foundation of the world.

For example, adoption is completed when you go take residence with the person who has adopted you. How do we know that it is going to happen? Because God has predestined it for all who are “in Christ”.

When were you included “in Christ”?

Were you “in Christ” before the foundation of the world?

No. That is not what it says.

Verse 13 says when you heard the word of truth… having believed… you were marked “in Him”.

You are marked “in Him” through faith. That is how we come to be in the Chosen One. We become His elect when we believe “in Him”.

THIS IS WHAT THE PARABLE OF THE WEDDING FEAST IS ABOUT

“Many are called, few are chosen.” What is he talking about? The King sent out His servants… who He chose out of His chosen nation… to go and preach the Gospel, first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. (Mat 22-1-14)

To go to “whosoever”. It does not matter how bad they are. Go invite anyone and everyone to come to my Son’s wedding feast.

And who are the ones chosen to enter into the feast?

Those who come dressed in the right wedding garments.

What does the wedding garment represent? It represents being clothed in the righteousness of Christ through faith.

You were “in Him” and were clothed “in Him” when you believed.

So, anyone who hears the Word of Truth, anyone who is presented with the opportunity to believe that truth, is responsible to that truth.

John 12:47-50 says that the very words spoken by Christ will judge us in the final day.

What are the Words of Christ? The Gospel, right? The Good News!

We will be judged by those words. Therefore, we are held response-able when those words are preached to us. Meaning we are ABLE TO RESPOND to the truth of God calling us to repent and believe.

Thus, anyone and everyone can come to the wedding banquet. He has sent his Gospel to be preached to the highways and byways and the desire is a genuine desire for ALL to be saved.

FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD

The Gospel is the appeal of God to be reconciled from the fall.

To say that the fall keeps anyone from responding to God’s appeal, keeps anyone from even being able to want to respond to that appeal, makes no sense.

Why would God send a message that was not sufficient to enable everyone who is fallen to be able to respond to His message?

I realize that Calvin’ists believe that the Bible is sufficient for the “elect”. But I believe the Bible says it is sufficient for everyone. The Gospel is sufficient when preached to anyone and everyone.

God uses a sufficient means of distribution… people telling other people. “Faith comes by hearing…”

Based on your comments, I think that you and I are in unity on this. I think we both believe God has sent an appeal to all mankind that is sufficient, and He has provided it for all who look in faith to the one “lifted up” to be healed.

I think we both believe that He truly desires all to do so. He is making a genuine, good-faith offer.

Yet, He grants everyone the ability to freely respond. Each person can accept the offer or refuse the offer.

This is our God-given RESPONSE ABILITY!

And the Bible says that we are RESPONSE ABLE for that decision!

And the Bible says that God will hold us RESPONSE ABLE for that decision!

That is justice!

God is just, not only because “He says so”, but because it is His moral nature.

The Bible does not say that we can respond on our own or that we even seek God on our own.

It says just the opposite.

Without God’s intervention –

without the Gospel –

without Him sending the Word, the Logos –

without Him sending the apostles –

without Him ordaining the church –

without His Holy Spirit going before –

to everyone –

we would all be hopeless and lost.

WE HAVE NO EXCUSE!

As mentioned earlier, none of us can stand on the excuse of saying, “We rejected God because He first rejected us. We hated God because He first hated us. We do not believe because He did not grant us the ability to believe. We are enemies of Him and hate Him because that is the nature with which we were born, and we have absolutely no control of it whatsoever.”

We cannot stand on the excuse that we did not have even the ability to desire to turn from sin because we were not one of the “elect” - because God must regenerate us first - because we are dead in sin without the ability to respond - and because God did not regenerate us.

That is not a biblical concept. It is not a view supported by the whole of scripture.

To say that God has two soteriological wills… a sovereign will, and a secret will… only confuses the problem. It really does not answer the question.

In our example of the police officer earlier, he does not have two wills. His job is to protect people. His job is to make the roads safer for everyone.

When he hides his presence, it does not mean he wants the speeder to speed. It does not mean that he working behind the scenes to make the speeder have a lead foot.

If he were to show himself openly, would people slow down? Yes.

He could slow people down for a short time, but only so long as they see him. When they no longer see him, they speed back up.

He hardens their heart or rather, strengthens their will (I.e. he makes it so they continue to do what they are inclined to do) to turn the speeder from their sin. (Action and reactions. Consequences. Justice.)

That is what God is doing with Israel and with Pharaoh.

He is not lying to anyone. He is not deceiving anyone. He is not saying on the one hand, He wants something to happen, but on the other hand he makes something else happen.

He is accomplishing His will through their rebellion and their sinfulness.

And just like the police officer, Jesus accomplished His one will by hiding His presence and allowing the sinner to be his normal self until He had been lifted up and was ready to draw ALL men to Himself.

Again, if you do not agree, please show me in scripture where I am wrong.

A ROCK OF SALVATION AND A STUMBLING STONE

God is using the rebelliousness of Israel to Jesus as their stumbling stone.

They stumble over the idea that their redeemer is going to come and be the conquering hero. They stumble over their self-righteousness; their belief that they are the chosen people.

He is using that to accomplish righteousness for the world. He is using that to make sure they cry out “crucify Him” when He claims to be the Son of God.

They do not recognize a messiah who is a suffering servant. They do not recognize a messiah who washes people’s feet and who comes in a manger and who is going to die on a cross.

They do not recognize that Messiah and He uses their self-inflicted blindness to His advantage - and to your advantage and to my advantage.

He keeps them in the dark for a time, to accomplish His one will - through their unbelief - through their rebellion.

But Paul says they have not stumbled beyond recovery. (Rom 11:11) He says they will be provoked to envy because salvation comes to the Gentiles. He says that they will leave their rebellion and be grafted back in.

So, the very ones in Romans 9 who have been hardened, who are cut off and are stumbling, Paul says have not stumbled beyond recovery. He says, because of envy they will be grafted back in.

At this, the disciple of this brand of Calvin’ism should say, “Wait, what does envy have to do with it? How does envy regenerate a dead person’s heart? Isn’t he totally disabled and dead from birth? Doesn’t the irresistible work of regeneration have to happen before they can envy Christians?”

Under a deterministic system it is difficult to even understand a system of justice as being anything other than “that which God desires.” Since without autonomy we intuitively feel there is no “response ability.”

As I have pointed out several times so far, Paul says to the Corinthians in his first letter to them, chapter 3, we are to stop dividing ourselves into ‘isms, stop following mere men and just follow the head of the Church, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Let us now discuss your points.

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I enjoyed reading your responses to my post. Here are some follow-up responses . .

(1) You say, “God permits people to oppose his will throughout” (pg. 5 in your pdf) – I think it is clear, as I know you would agree, that God permits people to oppose His moral will. This is the essence of free will, and like yourself, I do not believe the concepts of free will and God’s sovereignty are in conflict.

It seems we may disagree about the concept of a “secret will.” You say later in your document: “God’s ‘secret’ will is a Calvanist (sic) construct to make their theology work. All of God’s will is ‘sovereign’ will.” (pg. 21).

I believe that the idea of a “secret” will is not a construct (defining that as “an unnatural insertion or formulation of doctrine which is not drawn from the text itself but is placed upon the text), but rather a term put to an idea truly discovered in Scripture. (“Secret” can have the connotation of improperly hidden, so maybe it could be better to speak of “unrevealed” aspects of His will, but it really comes to the same point.)

Scripturally, there is some distinction made between things God has revealed (e.g., Christ’s return, with times of great tribulation before the end; the gospel preached to all nations; the gates of hell not prevailing against the Church; etc.) and things He has not. (1 Corinthians 4:5 is telling in this regard: “Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.”)

Based on certain Scriptures, I would put who all will be saved in that latter category of things not fully revealed. We can know (or strongly guess) many who will be saved by an examination of their fruit (“By their fruits, you will recognize them”; “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another”; etc.), while we can suspect many others will not be saved by that same test. “The sins of some people are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later.” [1 Timothy 5:24] This is not comprehensive knowledge, as we as humans cannot judge the human heart – only God can - and even affirmed atheists may repent and turn to the Lord in their final moments, for example.

Who will be saved is a mystery even to the ones in question:

12. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” [Matthew 7:21-23]

These people thought they were good, but it is clear they were not.

So I think the concept of a “secret will” - known only to God - of who will be saved is in keeping with Scripture.

It is important to note that Calvinist formulations are primarily talking about salvation, not general moral choices. This potentially introduces a weakness in my argument, which I will deal with later on.

>>>>

As I said, I do not see “secret will” of salvation anywhere in scripture, at least not the way some teach it.

I am not saying there is not a mystery. There is mystery. God’s ways are higher than our ways.

The Bible is clear that He has not told us everything He knows. But it is also clear that He has told us everything we need to know to respond to His genuine offer of salvation -- to all who believe.

Responsible and responsibility!

These words are the reason that disciples of this form of Calvin’ism have injected the “idea” of God’s secret or hidden will -- because, on the one hand, the Calvin’ist believes that the Bible tells us that God is loving and wants ALL to be saved. But on the other hand, the Calvin’ist believes that the Bible also tells us that He has predestined (pre-determined, in their mind) THE MAJORITY to be damned.

Thus, unless God is schizophrenic, he must have two wills on human salvation, right?

How about instead of trying to deduce the “idea” of God’s “secret” will, let us chuck this idea and see if the Bible does not make more sense.

Or please show me where it actually says God has a “secret will” which He is not disclosing to us, but for which he is holding us responsible for all eternity?

See, there is the rub. He is holding us responsible for all eternity!

If we are dead in sin and if He does not regenerate us because He has predetermined to send us to hell -- whether by determinism or willfully withholding grace (as you rightly say in #7 below) -- how can we follow His “revealed” or his “secret” will?

How can He hold us RESPONSE - ABLE? We do not have the RESPONSE - ABILITY, do we? For us to be ABLE to respond, He must regenerate us first (Arminian or Calvinist), right?

You say that you put “all who will be saved in that latter category of things not fully revealed.”

Let us discuss the first scripture you use to prove this “secret will”, 1 Corinthians 4:5.

Let us read this verse, in context…

As you taught us to do!

Let us start at the beginning of 1 Corinthians and read through to this verse.

As you teach, the chapter and verse divisions are not divine and were not in the original letter. So, we should think of all 16 chapters as one continuous letter with a wide variety of topics.

Paul starts this letter by telling the Corinthians to stop following mere men. This is the first topic with which Paul deals. Divisions in the church have cropped up.

They were mistakenly dividing themselves into distinct factions. (‘isms)

Obviously, some from Cloe’s household informed Paul that serious quarrels had taken place among these factions.

In chapter 3, Paul accuses the Corinthians of being “still worldly” and jealous and quarrelling. He tells them not to deceive themselves and think themselves wise by the standards of that age. He says they should become fools so that they may become wise. He says, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” So, then, no more boasting about human leaders!

Chapter 4 continues the same argument, doesn’t it?

He tells the Corinthians how they should regard Paul and Apollos (and Cephas), “as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.

This brings us to the verse you quote, 1 Corinthians 4:5, “Therefore, do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart.”

So, without the filter of any preconceived “system” of belief, what does it say? What is the Lord bringing to light when He comes? “Things hidden in darkness” and He will disclose what? “The purposes of the heart”, right?

So, let us ask the question, are these really a “secret will” of God regarding salvation? If anything, it is the revealed will of God that He is going to judge us based on our secret will, our sinful heart, isn’t it?

Would the God of light hide a secret will “in darkness”? (1 John 1:5 - This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.)

What are “the purposes of the heart” which He is going to disclose?

Are these God’s “hidden” or “secret” will? Or are these the same “purposes of the heart” that Paul has been discussing in this whole letter, things such as “jealousy and strife”?

I do not see a “secret” or “hidden” will of God anywhere in scripture on which He is going to judge us but especially not in this verse. The Bible tells us that we are responsible. Which means that we are response - able… able to respond.

It says that He is going to hold us responsible for our “secret” will, our “purposes of the heart”, which we have “hidden in darkness.”

Again, reading the whole of scripture, we know that God is loving. God is kind. God is the embodiment of all the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5, right?

A famous teacher of this brand of Calvin’ism says, “God Is Most Glorified in Us When We Are Most Satisfied in Him”.

Here is my problem (and I dare say, the Bible’s problem) with the 5-point logical conclusions…

No matter what, we must be satisfied with it. If we are one of the “elect”, thank Him for forcing us to be with Him for eternity. If we are not one of the “elect”, thank Him for sending us to eternal torment.

Because we cannot know whether anyone, including ourselves, are saved until we stand before the throne of God and He pronounces judgement. (As you say above following the Calvin’ist conclusions, "Who will be saved is a mystery even to the ones in question”)

So, even standing before God, you will not know until His “secret elect” are revealed, right? God will finally reveal his “secret” will which He has been hiding since before time began.

You will finally find out if He picked you and whether you get in. If you were not picked, you are damned to hell for eternal torment.

This form of Calvin’ism teaches that God deterministically causes everything, good and bad, to happen and we are to just be “most satisfied” with it.

This form of Calvin’ism teaches that God causes sin, evil, rape, child abuse, etc. and we must be “most satisfied” with that, right?

From what I understand, the followers of this form of Calvin’ism believe that God has a reason for sin, evil, rape, child abuse, etc. And who are we to question God, right?

I mean, if I am misrepresenting the 5-point view, please explain in what way. But if I am explaining it properly, then…

Followers of this form of Calvin’ism are supposed to be “most satisfied” no matter what their god does or is, right?

Why would He be most glorified with beings that are most satisfied with believing their god causes child sexual abuse (the example from your original post) and hides His reason?

Why would He be most glorified with beings who are most satisfied with having no idea whether they are going to spend eternity in a good place or eternal torment… because it is a “secret”?

Why would He be most glorified with beings who are most satisfied with believing their god is arbitrarily doing all these things for His most glory at their expense unless they happen to be one of the “elect”?

Their god’s glory is most important, above all else, no matter what he does or is, right?

Does the Bible teach this? Yes and no.

Yes. We are merely the clay. He is the potter.

We have no leg on which to stand with our Holy God!

We do not deserve His love. We choose sin over Him… always have and always will. We do not deserve His grace. We all deserve to be sent to eternal damnation.

I can agree with this preacher, “We Must Be Most Satisfied in God!” No matter what… BUT only with the God of the Bible, that is!

Yes! I can honestly say, with the Holy Spirit as my witness, that even if God kills me and sends me to eternal damnation, yet I will praise Him… the God of the Bible, that is!

But is that what the God of the Bible does? No! The reason I can exclaim the above praise is because that is not what the God of the Bible does!

I contend that a solid, Christ-centered theology highlights God’s mercy and self-sacrificial love for his enemies -- not his meticulous control over His enemies to suck as much self-glorification out of them as possible before He send them to hell.

The Bible teaches that God is NOT most glorified at the expense of His creation. The Bible teaches that God is most glorified at the expense of Himself -- for the sake of His creation!

He proved this at Calvary!

God is most glorified in the CROSS, the resurrection, the Gospel proclamation sent to EVERYONE!

The good news for EVERYONE is this (as the evangelist, Billy Graham proclaimed):

“Your God loves you!

He demonstrates that self-sacrificial love for you by sending His Son to die in your place -- because you know the will of God.

The Holy Spirit is speaking to your heart right now. He is illuminating this truth to you right now. He is convicting you of your sin right now.

You have known God’s will for you all along and you have been rebelling against His will. You know you are guilty and deserve punishment.

Repent, therefore, and live! Come to Jesus!”

He holds out his hands of mercy to everyone!

The Word of God clearly teaches that if anyone whosoever calls on the name of the Lord, he will be saved!

There is no secret here!

But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom 10:6-9 quoting Deu 30:11-20)

That is an explicit, Biblical teaching of the "response - ability" of man to God’s one perfect will, the Gospel. It is clear to each of us. It is our responsibility to respond!

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED! (Rom 10:8-9)

(By the way, notice the order. BELIEVE first, then YOU WILL BE SAVED. We will discuss this later in your discussion point #13, below.)

YOU CAN KNOW YOU ARE SAVED, RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, THAT YOU MAY KNOW that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)

You do not have to guess. You can know that you have eternal life, right now!

It is not a “secret”! It is not “hidden”!

You do not have to wait until you stand before the throne of God. That will be too late.

According to the Bible, you can know for a fact that you have eternal life, right now!

But you are right in saying that you cannot know whether I have eternal life.

You cannot know MY heart. You are right in saying that you cannot know if I am saved. You can strongly guess by an examination of the fruit of my life.

But you cannot know for a fact.

BUT I CAN!

It is not hidden from me. It is not hidden from the person responsible. It is not hidden from the person to be judged!

Each one of us knows if we “believe in the name of the Son of God.”

John is not saying those who believe “THAT” He is the Son of God can know. Even demons believe that. (James 2:19)

The whole Bible is clear in its words… those who believe “IN” the name of the Son of God.

Each of us knows in what we put our faith. If it is “IN CHRIST”, the Bible is extremely clear THAT YOU MAY KNOW that you have eternal life!

Next, your other verse, 1 Timothy 5:24. The sins of some people are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later.

In this verse, also, I do not see any kind of “hidden” will for which I will be judged.

It says that He knows our sins even if they are not conspicuous… even if we think our SINS ARE HIDDEN.

It is not His “hidden” will that I will be judged for my sins. It is His one and only will. It is His revealed will that I will receive just judgement and just punishment for my choice of evil over Him…

Especially, since He has already created a way out, already paid the just penalty for me. All I must do is accept his gift of grace by faith.

Keeping your verse, 1 Timothy 5:24, in mind let us use an analogy. What if I am on trial for allegedly committing a crime. You do not know if I committed the crime unless you saw me do it, right?

But I know! And God knows!

My sins are not conspicuous to you, but they are to me and they are to God!

Finally, your last verse, Matthew 7:21-23. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Looking at the whole of scripture, can we agree God is not cast as arbitrary or capricious? It shows Him to be just the opposite, right?

Then, this is a verse that should scare the Hell out of each of us, literally!

We do not want God to say this to us.

Instead of arguing for some kind of “secret” or “hidden” will of God, would it not be more consistent with the rest of scripture to say that God has revealed His offer of salvation plainly to all of us?

His one and only will for our salvation is the Cross of Christ!

He has sent apostles, the Church, and the Holy Spirit to proclaim His one and only will for our salvation to us. It is crystal clear. It is simple.

We are response – able to accept this clear and simple offer of God’s mercy, His grace, by faith! If we have placed our faith “IN CHRIST”, we will be doing the will of God.” (John 6:29) Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Does it not better fit with scripture to see this verse as saying you cannot fake your way into heaven? God knows your heart and will reveal it at the great white throne judgement. (Rev 20)

Before we go on to your next point, let us connect this to your first verse. (1 Cor 4:5)

Would it not be more consistent with the rest of scripture to understand that when the Lord comes, He will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of our heart. And unless we accept His revealed will… the Cross of Christ, we will be judged for our sins… even those we think are hidden.

In other words, we cannot “fake it until we make it”!

We must repent now and trust in the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world!

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2) Just to clarify, I am not arguing for Calvinism per se, but for Biblical theology (I state in my original post – see pages 13 and 26 in your document where these statements are quoted). Sometimes in your document you seem to suggest I am in that camp. Based on my arguments, you might put me there, but I would not call myself a Calvinist. I have some points in common with Calvinists, those being in places where I think Scripture supports those points, not because Calvinists believe them.

>>>>

Amen, brother! Praise God!

Again, I humbly apologize if I misrepresented you or made you feel as if I was attacking you personally. Please forgive me.

I am not a scholar like you. I am a simple man who has dedicated my life to studying scripture without formal instruction. I too advocate for Biblical theology.

I too, am neither Calvin’ist nor Arminian’ist. I did not even know what either of these meant until about 15 years ago. But as the Holy Spirit is my witness, I want to know the truth and nothing but the truth.

But from my simple man’s reading of scripture, neither seams true. I know that the more learned people have been arguing these for 500 years or so. And I know that they all push us to put everyone into an ‘ism bucket, “everyone must decide which ‘ism they are”.

If we call ourselves a Christian then, according to the ‘isms, we must get into one of the buckets:

1. Calvinism

2. Arminianism

3. Catholicism

4. Semi-Pelagianism

5. Or some other ‘ism (Thou must label thyself!)

I am none of the above.

I disagree with all of them on many points.

I agree with the Cross -- the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

In my simple man’s study, the Bible seems to tell us that God loves all of us, sent His Son to die for all of us, sent His Holy Spirit to enlighten all of us, and sent His Word to educate all of us.

He gave all of us everything we need to know His sovereign will for all of us. And He is faithful to save whosoever believes and calls on His name!

I can agree with the Calvin’ists and Arminian’ists, to a point on many things:

1. We wholeheartedly believe that God is completely sovereign and everything and everyone was created for His glory in Christ Jesus!

2. Through Christ, He created all things and holds all things together to the minutest detail. (John 1:1-18)

3. He does all that He pleases. (Ps 115:3)

But He voluntarily pleases to limit his sovereignty to accomplish His sovereign will. (ex. Ps 115:16; Phil 2:5-11)

And His sovereignty is purposefully limited by His moral nature. (I.e. He would not do anything sinful, false, immoral, wicked, evil, etc. Deu 32:4)

I believe the Bible is extremely clear that nothing occurs without God’s decision to either (a) Cause it to occur or (b) Allow it to occur.

Plus, the Bible is truly clear that there is a Satan and his followers who are doing their best to thwart the sovereign will of God in Christ.

The Bible is clear that God has given man free will and because of the fall, every person will choose sin when given the chance.

God has given all people the response-ability to choose to follow Him every minute of every day. And the Bible is crystal clear that God holds every one of us response-able for those choices.

We all inherited Adam’s nature, but we are not guilty of sin until we actually sin, which every one of us has done and will do, given the opportunity. (Jn 9:41)

God sent his son into the world -- into time itself -- born of Adam -- tainted by Adam’s nature -- tempted by every temptation with which we have all been tempted -- but who did not sin. (Heb 4:15)

He did not fall into temptation as all the rest of us have.

We cannot do it ourselves. This is the reason He sent His Son to do this for us. We need a savior. God gave us a savior. God gave us a way to atone for our sins.

There is only one way to atone -- through His one sovereignly provided way. He will hold everyone response-able for this choice. He expects us to respond when we are offered this ability to atone for those sins.

The Bible is extremely clear on all of this. We do not have to guess.

What I do not see in the Bible is the idea that God is somehow capricious or arbitrary in his dealings with humans on any subject, much less the subject of salvation.

I also do not see anywhere in the Bible that teaches that God is responsible for sexual child abuse and all the other evil things that humans have brought into the world.

I do not see the Bible giving anyone an excuse for not believing and glorifying God. (Rom 1:18-32)

In the Bible, I do not see a way for anyone to not be response-able for their own sins.

I pray that we could stop dividing ourselves, especially in the Church. “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Jn 13:34-35

There is too much division outside the Church, we need unity inside it. “Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!” Ps 133:1

I do not get involved in politics, Church politics or otherwise. That said, the closest I will come to politics or being called an ‘ism or an ‘ist is to say that I can agree, for the most part, with two [Bapt’ist] documents on Biblical salvation:

1. THE 2000 BAPTIST FAITH & MESSAGE and

2. The Traditional Southern Baptist Understanding of God’s Plan of Salvation (*Without the preamble.)

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3) In talking about God’s will, it is wise to recognize the mystery and incomprehensibility of some aspects of theology. Somehow it seems that God can want something (all people to be saved, for example), but not will it (clearly all people will not be saved). We pray for His will to be done on earth, which implies it can NOT be done, even as we affirm that “Our God is in the heavens; He does all He pleases.” [Psalm 115:3] These things on the surface may appear to be contradictory, but we hold both to be true. This certainly applies to this debate of predestination vs freewill as well.

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Again, not “necessarily”. See my response to your post in the first document, Page 7 and 8. And I also tried to address this in my introduction to this document.

I am not saying you are wrong, but can we state it another way that makes it fits into the rest of scripture – without contradiction?

Based on scripture, God either CAUSES or he PERMITS events to occur. He does not hide anything for which He holds us accountable in salvation.

Yes, God’s thoughts are not our thoughts. His ways are not our ways.

But He has not intentionally hidden or kept things from us for which He will hold us responsible at the Great White Throne Judgement? (Rev 20:11-15)

When we stand before Him, true Christians will be in the book of life and will be judged “in Christ” and be glorified “in Christ” because Christ has already paid our penalty. We will not pay our own penalty for our own sins.

Those who rejected Jesus’ clear and simple offer must pay the penalty for their own sins. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Those in Christ will be judged at the Bema Seat of Christ and rewarded for their works in the body – not salvation, but glorification. (See 2 Cor 5, specifically, verse 10.)

Psalm 115:3 “Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.”

But what does this same Psalm say pleases God most? Meticulous Devine Determinism or free moral beings who love Him and follow Him by choice? Which one is His divine, “sovereign will” as revealed by all of scripture?

Psalm 115:16 (same Psalm, btw) says, “The heavens are the Lord's heavens, but the earth he has given to the children of man.”

God is sovereign and He has one sovereign will. He does whatever he pleases. But what does he please to do? To give us a significant level of freedom and responsibility, doesn’t He?

He holds us response–able for what we do with that freedom.

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, (Heb 9:27)