Ephesians 1:3-11 Discussion

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Ephesians 1:3-11 (one sentence in Greek) speaks of God choosing or predestining us no less than three times. “3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.”

Here the timing of God’s choice – before the foundation of the world – is perfectly clear. The manner is also obvious – “in love;” “according to His purpose.” He did it because He planned to according to His sovereign purpose, and He did it because of love for us.

So predestination is a Biblical fact. God chose those who were to believe in Jesus to be saved.>>>>

No argument. However, free will is also a biblical fact.

My friend has been careful when defining words. Let me propose a definition for a word he uses often in his article:

Sovereignty:

1. God’s unlimited authority to act in any way he chooses (Contingent only on his moral nature. In other words, He would not do something false, immoral, wicked, evil, etc.)

2. Nothing occurs without God’s decision to either (a) CAUSE events to occur or (b) ALLOW events to occur.

Can we agree on this definition?

God either CAUSES or PERMITS events to occur.

Psalm 115:3 “Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.”

But what pleases God most: meticulous divine determinism or free moral beings who love Him and follow Him by choice?

Psalm 115:16 (same Psalm, btw) says, “The heavens are the Lord's heavens, but the earth he has given to the children of man.”

God is sovereign. He does whatever he pleases. But what pleases God? This verse says that God has given the earth to the children of man.

The sovereignty of God does not imply determinism or fatalism. That is not biblical.

There is no contradiction in that God knows what we will do but still gives us the freedom to do it anyway.

Because God knows the future, it does not mean He has determined that future. This concept is referred to in logic as a fundamental modal fallacy.

When you give your argument qualities like "being necessary,” that is a modal fallacy. It says that because part of the argument is true, the rest is “necessarily” true. That is a modal fallacy.

For example, God knew in advance, with certainty, that I would read my friend’s article today. This truth does not "necessarily" mean that He determined (or fated or caused) me to read my friend’s article.

That is fallacious. Notice what it is doing. It is leaping God “knows in advance, with certainty” to God “determined” it to happen.

Determinism does not follow from this. All that follows is that I read my friend's article and God knew it would happen. It does not mean that God fated or determined it to happen.

God knows the end and the beginning and everything between--all simultaneously.

It is hard not to jump to this conclusion from our vantage point inside of time. But it is not necessarily the case--especially from God’s vantage point outside of time.

The words “was going to,” “before,” and even “predestined” are all words that only have meaning INSIDE OF TIME… where we live.

From this understanding, let us revisit my friend’s quote from Ephesians 1. Look closely. There is a qualifier in every verse.

The qualifiers are “in Christ,” “in Him,” “through Jesus Christ,” etc.

Verse 3, He blessed us IN CHRIST. Verse 4, “he chose us IN HIM.” Verse 5, “as sons THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.” Verse 7, “IN HIM we have redemption.”

And so on. Re-read this passage now that you see the qualifiers. This passage says all the predestination and the blessing are for those of us ‘IN CHRIST,' doesn’t it?

So, we must ask ourselves, who are those “IN CHRIST”? What does it mean to be adopted as sons “THROUGH JESUS CHRIST”? How do we become “IN HIM”?

Paul tells us in the following two verses after my friend’s quote.

Ephesians 1:13-14, “In Him you also, WHEN YOU HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, AND BELIEVED in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.”

The entire teaching of Paul is the same throughout the New Testament. Good things come to those who have heard the Gospel, believed “in Him,” and received the Holy Spirit. These are those who are “in Christ”.

Rom 6:11 “So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.”

Rom 6:23, “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Rom 8:1, “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

Rom 10:8-10, “But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.”

I realize I went around my elbow to get back to my thumb, but here is my point.

The verse my friend quotes, Ephesians 1:3-11, is a lynch-pin Calvinist verse. Every debate comes complete with this verse to prove predestination. (I.e. Determinism.)

But again, I ask you to look closely. Who does it say is “predestined” for salvation?

Those who are “in Christ Jesus”, right?

How do we become “in Him”?

Through the choice to believe, right? (Which is a gift of God. But we must accept it by choice, right?)

So, those who accept the gift of salvation are “in Christ” and, therefore, "are predestined" to salvation, right?

But that does not mean God forced or caused them to accept it.

(And notice, I did not even use the Arminian debate words “puppet” or “robot” ;-)

And it does not follow that God caused or determines people to Hell. (My friend deals with this later in his section: Double Predestination.)

We choose to either follow or rebel--to accept God’s gift or despise it.

<<<<You can see this in many other texts. Romans 9 speaks of the sovereign election of God; in verse 16 Paul writes that “It” (“it” referring to God’s sovereign election until salvation) depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” Anyone that is saved is saved not because they wanted to be saved, but because God has chosen in His mercy to save them.>>>>

Let us unpack this other Calvinist lynch-pin passage for a moment.

Is it plausible that Romans 9 does NOT deal with individual salvation? Is it conceivable that the object of Romans 9 is the nation of Israel?

<<<<Acts 13:48 says that when the Gospel was preached in Pisidian Antoich, “as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.” Acts 18:26 states, “having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place” – if God has determined when and where people are going to live, are we to think that He did not plan in advance who would be saved?>>>>

Acts 18:26 states, “He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.”

LOL. The verse my friend meant to quote is Acts 17:26 (not 18:26).

There are many constants in the universe in which God placed us. The Law of Gravity. The Laws of Motion. E=MC2. DNA. And so on. God created those. Yes. He is the CAUSE of those.

The fact that you were born in a particular place, at a certain time, with a specific eye, hair, skin color, etc., does not “necessarily” mean that once God breathed life into you, He did not give you free will.

He caused you to be born where you were, and He caused you to be subject to the laws of the universe in which He placed you.

He made you (and all humans) ‘IN HIS IMAGE.”

But “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24)

Our spirit goes where our body goes. God does not have this limitation. We are subject to the laws God put in place. God is not--unless He subjects Himself to them.

So, what does "made in the image of God" mean?

Could He have made us in His nature--with His ability to make choices--with His ability to be creative, artistic, intelligent, wise, etc.?

<<<<It doesn’t seem reasonable. Mathew 10 says that our very hairs are numbered and not even a swallow falls to the ground without God’s knowledge. Are we to think He doesn’t extend His caring benevolence and wisdom to formulating a plan for His beloved children, who He made in His image?! Again, doesn’t seem logical.>>>>

Yes, and Amen!

Again, let us look at this from a different angle.

God is all-knowing. Therefore, he knows how many hairs are on our heads and when swallows fall.

But again, this does not “necessarily” lead to the fact that God forces us to love Him. People on both sides of this argument make some big leaps in logic to try and prove their point.

Does God guide us, direct us, use us, lead us, etc.? Most definitely! Does he want us to follow him? YES!

To quote a staunch Arminian pastor, Andy Stanley, “Following Jesus will make your life better and will make you better at life.”

When we "choose to" follow Christ, He “leads us not into temptation but delivers us from evil.”

“Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” (Rom 12:2)

In other words, choose not to conform. Choose to be transformed.

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Double Predestination

Now the inverse is true too, and this is where it is painful not any the less true. If God predetermines who is going to be saved, then He naturally predetermines those who will not be saved and thus damned as well. This is often referred to under the moniker of “double predestination.” That is, not only does God choose who He is going to save, but He also chooses who He is going to damn. Now before we cry “unfair,” let’s establish the Biblical teaching, and here I will also add Romans 9’s teaching that who are we as a lump of clay to say to the Potter, “Why did you make me like this?” (9:19-21).

A verse later, Paul states the inverse of predestination for salvation: “22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?” The reference to “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” indicates that some are appointed unto a doom of destruction. That is their place. Very heart-wrenching, but true. And as we do not know who will be and who won’t be saved, we are to go eagerly and sacrificially to all and proclaim the Good News of how they can be saved. Not all will respond, but many will!>>>>

Again, is it plausible that Rom 9 talks about the Jewish nation and not necessarily individuals?

“[God]desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Tim. 2:4)

“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” (2 Pet. 3:9)

“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32)

<<<<1 Peter 2:8, when talking about “those who do not believe” (v. 7) says, “They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.” 2 Peter 1:3 speaks that “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep,” and Jude 4 says “For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation.” These verses from 2 Peter and Jude are talking about false teachers, but it is clear from 1 Peter 2 that the predestination is for all unbelievers, not just false teachers.>>>>

“They stumble because they DISOBEY…as they were “destined” to do.

The word “disobey” seems to point to free will.

Read the whole paragraph. “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.” Jesus (who is the Logos, the Word) is the Stumbling Stone. Wouldn't it fit better with the rest of this chapter (and all of scripture) to understand this verse to mean, "Stumbling is the destiny of those who disobey the Word?"

And, as we have discussed, “destined,” “designated,” and “predestined” mean that from God’s point of view, it has already happened. It is their destiny. It does not, “necessarily,” mean that God caused it.

Again, “Unbelievers” is a “free will” construct.

<<<<Hopefully these texts show that, if you make the statement, “I don’t believe that God picks who will be saved or not in advance,” then you are not believing what the Bible teaches about the topic.>>>>

Based on the previous arguments, is it plausible that it could be both?

I.e. God knows “in advance” who will follow him. Thus, God “picks” those people. Knowing in advance does not "necessarily" lead to Him causing it to happen, right? (*This is the Arminian argument, not necessarily the Biblical one.)

And again, “in advance” is a time construct. It only makes sense inside of time where we live. To God who “was, and is, and is to come,” “in advance” could mean the same as “and it came to pass,” or “after all,” or even “as it was happening.”

<<<<Now let’s move on to TULIP, as this is most people’s exposure to Calvinism. Disclaimer: I am not advocating “Calvinism,” I am advocating Biblical theology. I will evaluate TULIP, which is really a distillation of canons / teachings from the Synod of Dort in 1618-1619. As an aside, John Calvin took no part in the conference, as he had been translated into the presence of the Lord over 50 years earlier. His teachings, particularly on the notion of God’s sovereignty, were picked up by followers of his theology, and they became “Calvinists.” I have often said I am a 4-point Calvinist; you’ll see what I mean below.>>>>

I agree. Biblical Theology is better than Calvinism or Arminianism.

I am presenting an Arminian-leaning view (to a point) only because my friend is presenting the opposite. But, as I’ve said, the Bible teaches both are true--to a point.

If I must use a label, I am a 2.5-point Calvinist and a 2.5-point Arminianist. (Is that a word?)

Man (even the most intelligent among us) cannot understand the mind of God and know His ways. I.e. “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? etc.” See Job 38:4-30.

Following Jesus is the only way to live our best life now and forever--by choosing to love God and choosing to love each other.

Both sides express the "T" and the "P" differently. And it is only semantics. Once you get past the semantics, they both seem to agree with the Bible.

Their main difference is with the middle letters. And the Bible has problems with those letters, too. It has a significant problem with the “L” and “I” and a minor issue with the “U.”

Let us look at how Scripture offers moderation on all five points.

<<<<Total Depravity – We have to first start with all of these by defining terms. When we hear “total depravity,” we hear we are as completely depraved as we can be. That is not what is intended by the term. Here we have to think of “total” in terms of parts. However many parts you think make up the human person, contamination from sin has occurred there. Body, soul, Spirit, mind, emotions, will, intellect, reasoning, logic – you name it. There is pollution there. The most righteous living person is still tainted by the presence of sin due to Adam’s sin in the Garden (Genesis 3). Praise the Lord, we are not as bad as we could be or as we should be. Somebody like Hitler was an immensely evil person, but he probably had natural affections for loved ones that we would call “good.” God restrains our badness through laws, through the Spirit, and through the influence of Christians who are light and salt in this world.

What total depravity means is that in all aspects of our being, we are tainted by the effects of sin. As a result, we are enslaved to sin (John 8:34) and completely unable to save ourselves. Biblically speaking, in a salvation sense, we are dead (Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13).

So when you hear this about total depravity, don’t think “There is nothing good in any one person.” While all of even our best intentions and actions are impacted to some degree by sin, people can and do things approved of by God, whether loving another person selflessly or giving generously or laying down a life to save another. That said, we should remember Jesus’ statement that “No one is good but God alone” (Matthew 19:17, my paraphrase). We should not think that there is anything meritorious in us, no deed we can do that earns us God’s favor, really nothing in us that God could find acceptable apart from the cleansing grace and imputed righteousness of His Son. God saves us in no part because of good in us. That is the doctrine of total depravity. Full check, with the reminder to define terms correctly.>>>>

Agreed. In this, my friend is arguing the Arminian point of Partial Depravity. LOL.

That is the problem with using scripture to argue for either side. As I’ve said, even the staunchest theologians tend to hedge their bets. Thus, the other side could also use the same argument to prove their point. But I digress…

Most Arminians and Calvinists agree on this point.

Tomato, tomato...

Semantics aside, neither believes that man can save himself.

Both agree that man is a slave to sin.

Both agree that there is nothing man can do to merit God’s favor.

Both agree that it is only through His Son's cleansing grace and imputed righteousness.

Let us add two more verses:

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 16:8–11 “And when he [Holy Spirit] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.”

Here is the crux. Both agree that the Father draws and the Holy Spirit convicts the world (unbelievers) of their sin and shows them the truth of (when they hear) the Gospel.

The real question deals with the following acronym letter, "Unconditional Election"

So, we agree that the Father draws and the Holy Spirit convicts an unbeliever of sin and allows him to understand the truth of the Gospel. (No matter if he is totally or partially depraved.)

Here is the real question: At that point, CAN THIS UNBELIEVER CHOOSE TO FOLLOW CHRIST, OR IS HE FORCED TO DO SO AGAINST HIS WILL?

Full check.

<<<<Unconditional Election – What is meant here is that God’s decision to elect believers for salvation is in no way conditioned on what they have done or will do. That is, God does NOT look down the line of time, see that a person will have faith, and then decide to save them based on that faith. Rather, God decides who will be saved and then gives them the faith they need to believe. Ephesians 2:8-9 states, “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” It can be convincingly argued that the “faith” is a gift of God.>>>>

The Calvinist makes this statement with such force! “God does NOT look down the line of time, see that a person will have faith, and then decide to save them based on that faith.”

The Armenian asks, “How do you know that?” The Bible does not “necessarily” prove this.

Before we continue, ask the Bible this question.

Does the person's faith save them or does God's grace save them?

The typical Calvinist argues hard on God giving faith as a gift. Because to not do so might mean the person has some part in his salvation.

But is it faith or grace (through faith) that saves?

Let us continue my friend's argument using this same verse.

Closely reading Eph 2:8, it says, “THROUGH faith” or “BY faith.” It does not say “TO faith”.

“For by grace you have been saved THROUGH faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God” (Eph 2:8)

The Calvinist argues that the grace for salvation is “to” faith… not “through” faith or “by” faith.

In other words, this “faith” is one of proxy. It is not the person’s faith but a faith planted within him by God. The grace and the faith are both gifts from God.

There is no argument there. (Except that the gift of faith is just that, a gift. Once received, it becomes OUR faith. Just like our love, hope, patience, hand, foot, etc.)

The argument occurs when “Unconditional” and “Irresistible” are applied.

They say faith is “Unconditional,” meaning you do not have to do anything. And what is more, you CANNOT do anything.

What? How?

Faith is an action word, something you must DO or HAVE. Grace is the thing in which you have faith, right? God’s grace is the object of our faith.

We receive the gift of faith from the Holy Spirit. But we must act upon that faith, or it will be worthless, right?

But that is where the following TULIP letter comes in… “Irresistible.”

They say that the person receiving this gift of faith cannot refuse it. It is “Irresistible”. The “faith” is a gift that the unbeliever MUST accept. God FORCES faith upon the “elect.”

Faith, hope, and love are all action words. They are the muscles of the Gospel. We must EXERCISE them to HAVE them.

The muscle is a gift of God. Imagine someone who, upon birth, immediately chooses to bind himself up and lie in bed all his life. His muscles are then worthless for his life.

Before the Calvinist says it, let me argue the other side for him.

So, if we exercise faith, those who believe would have some reason to boast in their faith.

What about the rest of this passage? Eph 2:9, “not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” What about Romans 3:27? “Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.”

Opening our minds, we might ask this question: Could Paul imply that it is impossible to boast of salvation by exercising the faith God gives us?

Could he be saying that "salvation through faith" leaves us no valid reason to boast of ourselves?

The question is what we have faith in.

‘Faith’ in the context of this verse is faith in the grace of God. It is faith in Jesus and his payment for our sins as the only way to salvation.

What could we boast about our salvation if we need a savior? Faith is the acknowledgment that our righteousness is as filthy rags. We cannot save ourselves. We need a righteous savior.

“What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.” (Phil 3:8-9)

Again, "through faith," not "to faith."

There is nothing inherently worthy of eternal life in our faith. Because of God’s grace, He accounts faith as righteousness through Christ.

Yes. The “faith” is a gift but also a choice to exercise it. The "Father-called" and "Holy Spirit-enlightened" sinner must still choose to exercise the gift of “faith,” right?

Let us look at the fundamental question from before:

The Father draws and the Holy Spirit gives the unbeliever the gift of faith. At that point, CAN THIS UNBELIEVER CHOOSE TO FOLLOW CHRIST, OR IS HE FORCED TO DO SO AGAINST HIS WILL?

Schrodinger’s Cat says it is both. LOL

God created us in His image (Gen 1:27) with the ability to choose.

Everyone’s life today is the total of the choices we made before today. And the choices we make today will determine our life of tomorrow.

How about this scriptural viewpoint?

1. The Father draws, and the Holy Spirit convicts the unbeliever and causes him to see the truth of the Gospel. John 16:7–8. (Because he is "totally or partially depraved”. Or he is “totally depraved with the ability to still do some good stuff." It depends on your definition. The bottom line is that he needs the Father to draw and the Holy Spirit to convict him and cause him to be able to see the truth. Whether he accepts that gift of salvation is still his free choice.)

2. Those who respond to this conviction receive eternal life. John 3:16. By faith alone (Sola Fide). In Christ alone (Solus Christus). Through grace alone (Sola Gracia). By the Gospel alone (Sola Scriptura). To the Glory of God alone (Soli Deo Gloria). Those who place their faith in Jesus and his gift of grace receive a new nature--they are now IN CHRIST.

3. In Christ, the Holy Spirit unites the believer with Christ and places him in the body of Christ, the church. Matt 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5-8 & 2:1-4, 1 Cor 12:12, John 17:11, etc.

4. The Holy Spirit unites the believer with Christ in his death, enabling him to make wise decisions and live victorious over sin. (Romans 6:1–10)

<<<<Certainly dead people can’t be alive, so God has to supernaturally give the grace of faith in order for a dead, unregenerate person to believe.>>>>

LOL. This argument is THE Calvinist talking point. (They give this cue card out in school, don’t they? Just like the Arminians receive the cue card, “Then why should we evangelize.”)

Okay? But a dead person cannot die again either, can they? If we were already dead, how can we die to sin? As in Romans 6:1-11…

“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.”

<<<<Remember Romans 9 tells us that before Jacob and Esau had done anything good or bad, God had already chosen Jacob – the younger – to inherit the promise of blessing originally given to Abraham. Jacob was a shifty guy. God worked in him to believe, not because he would believe. If you are saved, praise God! And take no credit for it. You had nothing to do with it. If you believed, it is because God caused you to. John 6:44 says, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” Picture a dragged, screaming child, and you have the image here. CS Lewis referred to himself as the most reluctant convert. I can testify that I was procrastinating and making excuses 20 minutes before I was saved. You may have received salvation willingly, but it was God giving you the heart to want it and receive it.

So here again, full check.>>>>

Agreed.

Hearing the Gospel and making a willing and personal choice to exercise the gift of faith is no reason to boast.

The gift of grace and the gift of faith are both gifts from God.

Salvation comes by Jesus' atoning work on the cross alone! Full check! Mike drop!

But that does not negate whether the person must still exercise their faith or it is worthless.

God cherishes a willing and obedient heart much more than forcing us into it (“Irresistibly”).

Would you rather have your wife love you willingly or because you force her? (Is it love if you must force her?)

“The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.” (Psalm 51:17)

“And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” (Mark 12:33)

And all of 1 Corinthians 13. “Faith,” “Hope,” and “Love” are all “free will” constructs. Especially love--to love is a choice.

<<<<Limited Atonement – Here again we must define terms. “Limited atonement” should really be stated more as “particular redemption,” “definite atonement” or “specific atonement.” Regardless of how it is presented, here is where I have the most trouble.

The classic presentation is that Christ’s atoning work did exactly what it set out to do. To quote Wikipedia’s article on “Calvinism,” “Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all. Some Calvinists have summarized this as ‘The atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect.’”

We have to be careful here; many verses speak of Christ dying for all (Romans 6:10; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15), but what is in view by “all” means “every believer.” Paul is saying that Christ’s saving work was for all believers. That one-time work was applied for all; no exclusions. So just because we find a verse saying that Christ died for all or is the Savior of all does not, in and of itself, mean we can confirm unlimited atonement.

I confess that some of my thinking about this is based on my overall theological framework of God. These are my biggest moral / Biblical objections. (1) If Christ only died for the sins of believers, how could the Gospel rightly be offered in preaching to everyone, not knowing if Christ’s death really died for everyone’s sins? How is that a “good-faith” offer? I believe the death was a true death accepting the full payment of God’s wrath for sins. Some will believe and receive the benefits, others will reject. But the price was still paid.

(2) If you look at a verse like John 3:16, which says that God loved the world in this way, that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. While this verse doesn’t specifically speak about the extent of the atonement (specific or universal), in context, the event refers back to when a snake was lifted up in the desert that whoever looked to the snake who was bit would be healed. It seems that the “offering” was for all.

1 John 2:2 is perhaps the hardest verse for proponents of limited or definite atonement to get around – “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” The apostle John seems to be speaking of the limited atonement – “for our sins,” speaking of believers – and then saying that it is part of an overall atonement – “but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 Timothy 4:10 seems to suggest a similar idea: “we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.”>>>>

I agree. You made the case for the other side. I will not belabor it.

<<<<Irresistible Grace – Once again, definitions are critical. Here “grace” is speaking in a limited sense to the effectual grace of salvation, the inner call of God that inevitably, unstoppably results in the person placing their trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. We read in Philippians 2:13 that “it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” God works in a person by the Holy Spirit (John 16:7-11) to convict them of their sin and place their faith and trust in Jesus alone for their salvation. To once again quote Wikipedia, in the article on the topic, “God must powerfully intervene by giving him life and drawing the sinner to himself. In short, Calvinism argues that regeneration must precede faith.”

It is critical to understand that this is not applicable to broader situations but only to salvation. Clearly people (including Christians) resist God’s grace all the time. People are constantly preaching the Gospel of salvation, and sinners are hardheartedly rejecting it. God is constantly longing to do things in and through believers, and we resist Him. What this doctrine says is that, if God has purposed for someone to be saved, there is nothing that person can do to stop it happening.

Freewill advocates would pop up here and say, “That’s not fair. That denies my free choice.” I personally don’t have a hang-up reconciling God’s sovereign choice with my free will. I have to understand that my free will is within the bounds put on it by the sovereign God. He has ordained certain things that will happen. His secret will. But He has also allowed many things to happen that are against His moral will, but get bound up in His all-encompassing sovereign will.>>>>

Here again, my friend is making the point for the other side.

No one is asking for fairness, only consistency of logic. How can the Calvinist argue “Irresistibleness” in salvation but “free will” in everything else?

Without copying and pasting my friend’s last paragraph, let us postulate a different paragraph:

God’s “secret” will is a Calvinist construct to make their theology work. All of God’s will is “sovereign” will. He is the Alpha and the Omega--the beginning and the end. He is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in one. He knows all things. He ordained all things. He controls all things. He is all-knowing, all-powerful, and by Him, all things were created, visible and invisible in heaven and on earth, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. Amen!

Many people start with a belief system and try to force the scriptures into that system. They pass it down repeatedly until it is blasphemy to negate it. A perfect example is “His secret will” or “His hidden will” vs his sovereign will.

Again, I propose that God’s will is sovereign. He is in control, even when we exert our free will to oppose His sovereign will. He knows who will follow and who will not. He will judge the living and the dead (2 Tim 4:1) because “it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment (Heb 9:27).

Verses like this would make no sense if He created people he forced to salvation and those He forced to damnation.

Again, as my friend says, Full Check!

<<<<Let me illustrate. God says, “Don’t murder.” The Jews with the assistance of the Romans murdered Jesus and many other followers of Him. But that was ordained. In doing bad, those people were inadvertently doing God’s will. In the same way, you and I make decisions every day, but God incorporates all those into accomplishing His sovereign will. So a victim of child sexual abuse is so crushed in the inner person that he seeks a way out of the pain and is open to the Gospel. God used a bad thing to bring about a good thing.>>>>

Did God cause the child sexual abuse? By no means!

As we have already discussed, he allows our free will in his sovereignty. And without the Holy Spirit’s conviction and our choice to accept the gift, humans choose to rebel and break God’s heart.

The bottom line is that a child predator makes evil choices.

Can and does God use the result for His purpose. Most definitely! And can and does God use the results for the child’s ultimate good--if that child believes and follows Christ--yes!

<<<<Someone can say, “Well, if I don’t have a choice in the matter of whether I am saved, then it’s not free choice.” All I can offer is that He is the Creator and you are not, and if He decides to save you, then rejoice and be thankful, because He has saved you from eternal damnation.>>>>

I do not mean to be jerk, but isn’t my friend contradicting himself with this next paragraph?

<<<<Secondly, God doesn’t force anyone to do anything, as that would violate how He works in creation. But His power is such that He can do anything He wants, while at the same time not violating anyone’s free will.>>>>

That sounds like double talk. For which side is my friend arguing?

<<<<Think of it this way. If you are outside on a blindingly sunny day, you can close your eyes, but you can’t resist the sun’s power. It warms you, and you feel its rays upon you even with your eyes closed.>>>>

Yes. But to see the light, I must open my eyes.

<<<<We live in such a world that if God moves and acts, because we are in His world, we feel it. It impacts us. You could say, “I don’t have a choice about breathing.” Granted. Your body will fight to breathe, even if you try to resist, and eventually you will lose the fight unless you bring some outside agent to physically stop your breathing. At that point, you should say, “Thanks, God” for making it impossible for you to stop breathing.>>>>

Yes. God created the laws of the universe in which we live and by which we must abide. This fact does not “necessarily” mean He forces you to have faith.

<<<<That is a big long tangent, but coming back to the main point, God sovereignly decides who will be saved, and no human or spiritual agency can stop that. The flip side of this is that no one can stop you from being saved if God intends it. Just as “nothing can separate you from the love of God in Christ” (Romans 8:39), so nothing can stop you from being saved.

Properly defined, I agree with the

concept of God’s irresistible grace in the matter of salvation. (As mentioned before, the caveat is that we can and do resist God’s grace in other matters all the time.)

Does this violate our free choice? No. There are certain things He can decide for us as our Creator, and we have no choice in the matter. I didn’t have a choice as to what parents I was born to (or even whether I was born), where I was born, my physical features, certain aspects of my personality. All I can do is submit to God’s good plan, or resist it.>>>>

Bingo! So, how does that “necessarily” prove the argument that “God sovereignly decides who will be saved, and no human or spiritual agency can stop that?

The flip side of this is that no one can stop you from being saved if God intends it.”

How does my friend reconcile “the concept of God’s irresistible grace in the matter of salvation” but say in the same paragraph, “We can and do resist God’s grace in other matters all the time”?

Both sides end up arguing for BOTH!

<<<<Those are my free choices.>>>>

Yes, preach!

<<<<As someone who has walked with Christ for over 20 years, I can tell you that I feel an immense amount of freedom as a child of God, far more than the trapped nature of what I felt before I accepted Jesus.>>>>

Amen, brother. Me too! Over 40 years here.

The Arminian argument is “prevenient grace” or “resistible grace.” It is the type of grace the Holy Spirit bestows.

This grace convicts the unbeliever of sin and allows them to understand the Gospel. (See our discussion above under: “Total Depravity.”)

Whether a person receives God's grace in a way that regenerates them is up to the individual's choice.

As you mentioned earlier, Jesus said, “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32)

So, their position is that Jesus draws ALL people (John 12:32), and the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin. “And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment” (John 16:8)

They call this unlimited atonement. (See below.) This is the concept that Jesus died for all people--whether they accept His sacrifice or not.

But only those who choose to accept and follow Him will inherit eternal life.

<<<<Perseverance of the Saints – This doctrine teaches that once a person is truly born again and saved, then nothing can stop that person from remaining saved, and they will remain saved forever. When we hear “perseverance,” we tend to think of human effort to stay the course. But here specifically, it is God’s enabling of the true believer to remain firm to the end. It has nothing to do with man’s power, but with God’s strength.

Lot of texts to choose from here, but I will give a sample of three: (1) Philippians 1:6 – “I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” God began the work (of salvation); He will finish it. Notice the emphasis on it being God’s work to begin and complete. (2) First of two sister verses. John 10:28 – “28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” Because of the Lord’s sovereign hold on them, no believer will be lost. His strength safeguards it. (3) Next verse. John 10:29 – “29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” The Father is “standing guard,” so to speak. Jesus is guarding us. The Father is guarding us. No one is getting past that defense. We have to remember that Satan is not on level footing with Jesus. Satan is created – and fallen. Jesus is uncreated. Satan is to Jesus as an ant is to a human, and not a stinging ant either>>>>

Let us discuss this last acronym letter.

The Calvinist believes, “Once saved, always saved.”

And they accuse the Arminian of believing that you can lose your faith.

The difference between these views is mere semantics. (In my humble opinion.)

Let us dig into each side and look at the lives of all people who profess Christianity.

But let us do so through Jesus’ story of the seeds and the four soils in Matthew 13, Mark 4, and Luke 8.

(Luke 8:11-15) “11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.”

To paraphrase this parable. There are four type of people and all four hear the Gospel:

1. The first type never believes and thus is not saved.2. The second type receives it with joy and believes for a while, but in time of testing, it falls away.3. The third type believes that their fruit does not mature because of the cares, riches, and pleasures of this life.4. The fourth type is those who hold fast and patiently bear fruit.

The Bible says that three of these four people believe the Gospel. As a matter of fact, in verse 13, the original Greek for the words “fall away” is where we get our word “apostasy.” (Gk. apostēnai, “turn away from, forsake, apostatize from”)

This is the same word used in Heb 3:12 “Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.”

In this verse, the Hebrew writer talks to Christian brothers. How is it that they have an evil, unbelieving heart, leading them to “fall away”?

We all know people who professed faith in Christ but committed apostasy and fell away from the faith.

Here is the semantics issue. The Calvinist will say that person was never a true Christian in the first place. The Arminian will say, “They professed Christ and fell away. Only God knows their heart.”

5-Pointers of both sides believe the true Christian is the one who endures and produces fruit.

True Christians “are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.”

So, again, tomato, tomato. IT IS BOTH!

The Bible is clear that true believers, those who are “IN CHRIST,” will not fall away. True believers do not lose their salvation, as evidenced by many verses such as John 10:27-29, Eph 1:4, John 6:39-40, Rom. 8:35, 38-39, and Phil. 1:6; 1 Pet. 1:3-5, etc.

But how do you know if you are one of the chosen? How do you know if you are the good soil?

The answer is more questions.

Is your life bearing fruit and are you persevering to the end?

Let me tell you another story.

When I was 12 years old, I knew for a fact (faith) that I received the gift of salvation. I believed, and the pastor of the Calvary Baptist Church of Texas City, Texas, baptized me.

I was still calling myself a Christian in my early twenty's, but I was not living like one. I was living for the things of this world. I was not living for Christ.

I made incredible money as the manager of an insurance company.

And part of my job was to train new agents. We typically spent a week together.

One of these new agents was an ex-pastor of a local church. As we talked, I said all the right things. But he saw how I lived my life. My words and deeds did not add up.

And this new agent asked me one question that changed my life trajectory.

He said, "Where is your fruit, Tony?"

As James 2:14-26 says, "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

Can that faith save him? …”

If our life is not bearing fruit, we have a choice.

And we have this choice every day until our dying day.

Rom 12:2 “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind…”

<<<<So that’s it. Honestly, a very brief presentation, but I remain bound by time, responsibilities, and capacity to frame it all more than I have at this time. I will continue to read and study and learn more as I have the opportunity. It’s a wonderful field for inquiry, and more importantly, a chance to know the amazing God.

If you are interested in more study on the TULIP formulation, there is a great primer from a Reformed perspective here:

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/tulip-and-reformed-theology-introduction/. Again, I don’t argue for all five points, as I have commented on. I am not asking you to be a Calvinist. I am asking you to develop or refine a Biblical theology. I think these five are a solid framework for discussion. They are not the original formulation; the Synod of Dort was actually formed as a response to doctrines raised by Arminians. Read the five points of Arminianism, which precede the 5 points of Calvinism chronologically, here:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Arminianism

I fellowship with believers who think differently about these points. I do not believe that adherence to the 5 points of Calvinism is a prerequisite for salvation. Many godly Christians have held different views.

I welcome your interactions. My hope is to have shared my own observations and hopefully spur on your Biblical exploration and adherence.>>>>

Thank you, brother. You did. I look forward to getting back together and learning more from you.

There is a tension in the Bible between God’s unfailing, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresence and his gift to us of our free will.

Again, I will say it. The Bible professes BOTH.

God gave us the ability to choose but without the Holy Spirit, we will always choose sin. The Holy Spirit allows us to choose faith, but He does not force it on us.

Let me summarize my understanding of the tension between predestination and free will in the Bible.

1. Every minute of every day, I have choices to make.

2. As I reach each point, I have the choice of going one way or the other (Following Christ or the world.), and the Holy Spirit is right there with me the whole time, prompting and prodding me to make the right choices--but not forcing me.

3. As I make those choices, my life unfolds.

4. Those point-to-point events create my life’s design.

5. My life design is a line from each point to the next that snakes everywhere--a geometric design like a snowflake. Each of ours is different from all the others.

6. But nobody can see a person’s life design until it ends. (And by using the word "design," you see my belief in God's sovereignty in all things. Even our choices. lol)

7. God sees that design from the beginning, from the end, and as it is created. All at the same time.

8. From God’s vantage point, our life design is already created--predestined. And He knows exactly how it shapes out before it has any shape. (Remember, "Before" and even "Predestined" are words that only make sense inside of time.)

9. This does not mean He "necessarily" caused or forced His will on each choice. It is both. He gave us free will and uses (or guides) that gift of free will to create our design. (Boom. My mind is blown again.)

10. He uses all our designs to weave His ultimate tapestry. “And we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.” (Rom 8:28) For His ultimate glory. Amen!

“Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ Isaiah 46:10

“For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.” Jer 29:11

So, which is true? Predestination or Free Will?

Is it possible that the fact that we ask this question is both?

It is a choice we make every minute of every day--Our true and proper worship.

Romans 12:1-2 “Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, given God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.”

As we keep our eyes on Jesus and follow Him, He will lead us in the path of righteousness for His name’s sake and will lead us away from temptation. It is when we take our eyes off Him that we sink. When we are not following Him, we are led into temptation and fall.

The last line of the Lord’s Prayer is Matthew 6:13 “And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil.”

But at the same time…

“The steps of a man are established by the LORD, when he delights in his way;” Psalm 37:23

The great commentator Matthew Henry said it this way, “Observe, God orders the steps of a good man; not only His way in general, by His written word, but by His particular steps, by the whispers of conscience, saying, ‘This is the way, walk in it.’ He does not always show him His way at a distance, but leads him step by step, as children are led, and so keeps him in a continual dependence upon His guidance.”

Dear Lord, thank You for giving us free will and, simultaneously, ordering our steps. Thank You for walking with us, guiding us, and leading us to our ultimate Victory. Thank you for promising to hold on to us and keep us on Your path. May we finish the race strong. Forgive us when we let go of Your hand and try to run independently. We love You, Lord, in Jesus' Name.

AMEN

Thank you for reading to the end. I cannot wait to see your response.

P.S. For those of you who have read this far and are of a different opinion than my friend or me, remember the most important thing is love.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.”

TLDR:

What is the biblical answer? It is a PARADOX! Both are true.

This is a marvelous paradox that God brings to focus in the crucifixion of the God-man, Jesus Christ. Peter says in Acts, ‘This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross’ (2:23). In the Crucifixion, God Himself was subject to evil men. Peter doesn’t tell us where God’s sovereignty ended, and man's responsibility began; he tells us that they are both real.

Another example is the paradox of Jesus weeping at the tomb of Lazarus, yet knowing that he would raise him in a moment. The fact that there is pain and joy simultaneously is a paradox, not a contradiction, for the emotions are not mutually exclusive. What about the paradox of faith and reason? Are they mutually exclusive? Absolutely not. God has put enough into this world to make faith in him a most reasonable stance, but He has left enough out to make it impossible to live by reason alone. Such is the paradoxical nature of Christianity.

Although the human mind is engaged by mystery, we do not know how to engage it. In other words, the paradox we encounter in matters of faith is uncomfortable because we do not know how to balance the two parts of it. Our compartmentalizing minds want to put everything into a box, and yet the claims of Christian belief are not mutually exclusive. God, in his divine sovereignty, has given us liberties and freedoms. Since our sovereign God chose to grant us this privilege, it cannot be something that in any way diminishes his sovereignty. He circumscribes the limits of that freedom such that we cannot violate His sovereign plan and will, but that does not negate the freedom we enjoy. Paradox sits uncomfortably on our rational mind, but so should the Incarnation since it is the advent of a Person who is proclaimed to be very God of very God while also being very man of very man. How can God be entirely man while still being entirely God? It’s a paradox of the highest order.

Resources for further study:

Determined to Believeby John Lennox

God’s Provision for Allby Leighton Flowers

Do we have a free will(Ravi Zacharias and Frank Turek VS RC Sproul and John Piper)

Psalm 8O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!

You have set your glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babies and infants, you have established strength because of your foes, to still the enemy and the avenger.3 When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, 4 what is man that you are mindful of and the Son of man that you care for him? 5 You have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. 6 You have given him dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet, 7 all sheep and oxen, and also the beasts of the field, 8 the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the seas.9 O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!